[Slightly OT] Neverwinter Nights A Failure? [Rant]

[MasterOfHeaven]

I dropped by the Neverwinter Nights forums for the first time in a while, and what I've been reading and learning about the game is very dissapointing.

Bioware has not done a very good job translating 3rd Edition D&D to the computer, from what I've seen. Certain spells have been vastly overpowered, various class skills are absolutely essential for character survival (A character without Discipline is a dead character) and Bioware has also introduced new, competely ridiculous item properties.

For example: Complete immunity to Sneak Attacks on any magic item. Cost? 1001 GP. This cannot be countered by any other magic item or spell.

Magic items that give complete immunity to an entire school of magic. That's right, imagine having an item that gave you complete immunity to all Evocation spells.

Spells like, say, True Seeing, have been ridiculously overpowered. True Seeing now grants you the ability to see anything, including hiding characters, hidden doors, and traps all automatically. And it can be put on an item for a mere 9001 GP.
Rogues suffer greatly because of that spell, and it would seem that Bioware isn't satisfied with True Seeing doing what Spot, Listen, and Search do automatically, and have weakend the Rogue further by raising the DC of traps that can only be detected by a Rogue to 35.


There's way more overpowerd spells and item abilities, (Word Of Faith, Damge Immunity) but I just don't feel like typing it all out. It just seems like Bioware has taken the finely tuned and balanced system that 3rd Edition, and completely ruined it.

I'll still buy the game, but I'm no longer expecting the good translation of the 3rd Edition rules to a computer game that Neverwinter Nights promised. I don't think that a perfect translation is possible, but I do think that Bioware could've done a far better job than what they appear to have done so far.

At least PnP is under no real threat of being taken out by this game. That fear is now obviously unfounded.

 

[hong]

Given that D&D isn't supposed to "model" anything in particular, I don't see anything wrong with NWN not modelling D&D that well.

Balancing a CRPG and balancing a regular RPG are two different things. I trust Bioware to do a good job on this front, given their track record so far.

 

[MasterOfHeaven]

Given that D&D isn't supposed to "model" anything in particular, I don't see anything wrong with NWN not modelling D&D that well.

Balancing a CRPG and balancing a regular RPG are two different things. I trust Bioware to do a good job on this front, given their track record so far.

Yeah yeah, the same old excuse used countless times for bad balancing decisions in a CRPG that's translated from a RPG. I used to trust Bioware on this issue, but after looking at what they have done with the spells, the skills, the magic items and so on, I just don't buy it anymore. Blind faith in a company because they've done a good job before isn't very wise, in my opinion.

 

[Pielorinho]

Master, may I suggest that before you play the game, judging it a failure is premature and hasty?

I've been on those forums too, and read the threads knocking Bioware's choices. Here's my thinking, though:

1) Bioware has made kickin' D&D games before. They're intelligent, creative, shrewd gamemakers.
2) The designers have each put thousands of hours into this game.
3) They've spent the past two or three years working on this game, balancing it, tweaking it.
4) They're therefore more familiar with how NWN works than is some hypercaffeinated thirteen-year-old who pops up on their forum to yell at them for making True Seeing overpowered.

That's not to say that they'll definitely make a great game. It is, however, to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's pretty silly to knock a game before you've played it.

If you play it and discover that you're buying every single True Seeing item you can find, that your rogue is a useless character, that an immunity-from-evocation item is ridiculously overpowered, complain then.

And not until.

Daniel

 

[Henry]

Baby Steps, my friend. Baby Steps.

Remember how well the first SSI gold box games modeled 1st edition AD&D? You couldn't pick anything but fighters, magic-users, clerics, and thieves, and half-orcs were right out! (After azure bonds you could pick more classes, but that's a different story.)

I still don't expect this game to replace our tabletop playing, but it will still be fun to play, I am willing to bet. Let's actually see the game before we crucify it.

And I have been heartily seconding your estimation that NWN will never make TRPG's fear ever since I first saw word of it in 1999, and nothing makes that change.

 

[Kestrel]

Keep in mind that if you are doing custom adventuring (with a DM controlling the scene) the DM has the option of simply not including those "overpowered items" .

I never expected NWN to completely replace PnP gaming or even come close to emulating it, but it will make for a fun CRPG experience. No computer game will ever match the complexity of the imagination used in PnP games. I guess it has to do with setting your expectations and enjoying what the game has to offer.

 

[MasterOfHeaven]

Those Gold Box games were fun, heh. The thing is though, the developers of those games never promised a great translation of the 1st Edition rules to a CRPG. Bioware repeatedly stated they were following 3rd Edition rules as closely as possible, and yet from the information we are recieving now, that does not seem to be the case.

It will still be a fun game, like I said, but they raised expectations that the game would be as close to a 3rd Edition CRPG as possible, and they are failing to deliver from what I've seen so far. I reserve final judgment on the game until I've played it, of course, but as of now, with the information I have, my judgment is that it is not living up to the promises the designers made. And I have every right to make that judgment.

PS

Pielorhino, your classification of anyone who complained about the True Seeing spell as a "hypercaffeinated 13 year old" is rather senseless and immature.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Master of Heaven,

I hope you aren't violating a NDA.

In any case NWN is still in beta. You can post your thoughts on the Bioware boards, perhaps with the tread title "Re-Evaluating Costs for NWN items".

Good luck and happy gaming!

 

[Teneb]

A couple of things here:
Regarding an NDA: I assume he's getting all of this from the beta toolset released to the public, so that's not a problem. Now, on to MoH's post:

While its true that any item can have any property (and I can't comment on the costs issue, haven't used the toolset yet), keep in mind that players can't make items, only DM's. Don't want to give your players access to an item with True Seeing on it? Don't give it to them. Simple as that.

You also misrepresent True Seeing a little. Bioware has specifically stated the spell DOES NOT reveal traps, though it does reveal hiden and invisible creatures. Exactly like the PHB spell? No. The stated reason is that illusions, by and large, are not in the game (too hard to make a GUI for them). In order to make True Seeing more powerful than the 2nd(?) level spell See Invisible, they had to give TS more of a kick. This is why it reveals hiden characters (which See Invisible does not).

Hong basically hit the nail on the head. Its hard to translate a game that takes place in your head to a CRPG. I agree that Biowares track record indicates that, while not perfect, the game will still be fairly adherent to 3e rules.

MoH speaks about 3e's finely tuned and balanced system and goes on to say NWN will destroy it. Hate to say it, but there are a lot of folks who would disagree about the finely balanced point. A lot of the splatbooks are decried as horribly unbalancing by a lot of people. I know, I know...apples and oranges since splatbook material isn't covered by the initial release of NWN. But I hope you see my point.

Finally, MoH says blind faith in a company because they've done well in the past is a bad idea...I counter that judging a game before you have the final product in your hands is equally......questionable.

Teneb

 

[Leopold]

2 things:

1. Ever play Everquest? The game has been tweaked and torqued since day one. No doubt this will happen as more and more reports come in about "This is too powerful" or "This is no the way it's supposed to be", etc. Let them get the product out to the masses and then it will be fixed.

2. Errata: Like number 1 it's going to happen. A patch will fix things and certain things will change in time. You must understand that completely replicating DnD 3E to a compute is not that easy especially with the engine they are using. It will come in time.



Overall things may be overpowered but they will fix them, BioWare has a great track record when it comes to fixing and tweaking their software.