Slow Combat Problems

[PugioilAudacio]

Wow, so many replies. Thanks for all the help. I'll propose these methods to my group for next weeks game. Hopefully, this should speed things up a bit.

 

[Ssyleia]

Back in 1st Edition we introduced the concept of an initiative List. Each player has 2 Miniatures representing his character - one is placed on the battlefield, the other goes to the initiative List. It's made out of cardboard and has 1"x3" fields ranging from "1 or less" to "30+" in two columns.

Secondly, we learned from mistakes and now strictly enforce memorizing rules and no longer give more spells to sorcerers by houserule. A lot of delay in combat is caused by players wondering for 5 minutes which spell to cast before choosing "Magic Missile" anyway...

Also, I as a DM enforce that players have a calculated Sum of their attack bonuses by weapon, saving throw adjustment, etc written on their character sheet. Nothing is worse that having to calculate all those "+2 Strength, +3 Base Attack, etc..." on the spot as some players somehow do prefer???!!!

Also, if a player takes too long to "get going" I arbitrarily decide after a certain amount of time that he refocus to a lower initiative count (usually -10) - making him not loose his turn, but psychologically VERY effective ;-)))

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

I feel your pain. Sometimes, in my groups, combat takes so long it's downright painful.

Have you tried putting a time limit on how long players have? I know some might complain that it takes the fun away a bit, but so can having to wait 20 minutes for one player to decide what he/she is going to do.

I think having a time limit might encourage people to think about what they're going to do while others are having their turn. Of course, sometimes, what the person ahead of you does can alter your plans (ie you're about to cast fireball and suddenly your party's rogue moves right in front of the line of fire).

If the person does not act within , say 2 minutes, they forfeit their turn for that round.

Good luck.

 

[orchid blossom]

I think having a time limit might encourage people to think about what they're going to do while others are having their turn. Of course, sometimes, what the person ahead of you does can alter your plans (ie you're about to cast fireball and suddenly your party's rogue moves right in front of the line of fire).

As in Djeta's example, this can be a big problem for spellcasters. They're prepared, know what they're going to do, and then the person before them in init moves and everything has changed.

In situations like this our group will generally voluntarily delay till after the next person. It keeps things moving.

Also surprisingly useful are making sure you have different colored dice. When I have more than one attack, I just declare colors for which is first, second, etc. Then I roll the d20's and the damage dice all together. I also will generally roll before my turn. The only expection is if I come up with a possible crit. I will wait for my turn to roll to confirm. I like witnesses for that.

 

[woodelf]

With a six-player group 15 minutes between turns seems pretty normal, that means a typical 3-round combat will take about 45 minutes. I don't get bored waiting 15 minutes for my turn; only if it went over half an hour would I start to fidget.

Obviously all players need to have their turn ready when the GM gets to them; as GM I'd give a tardy player 6 seconds to decide, otherwise they do nothing. I find 'Delay' actions are quite popular these days.

Flicking through PHB to decide what to do _on your turn_ is not acceptable in my book, if the round takes 15 minutes you've already had plenty of time to do that.

Gah! It takes you 15min to get through a single round of combat? And i thought *we* were slow at D&D3E. I don't think i could stand playing a game where that was the norm (whether due to the mechanics or the players)--spending 12.5-15 minutes sitting around is way too long for a regular occurrence when the party isn't separated. And taking 2.5-3min just to resolve my [already-decided] actions is also way too long. I'd probably get frustrated if i had to run that game, too. I wouldn't want anyone to sit around doing nothing for 15min, even if the party has split up--i'll try and cut back and forth between members of a split-up party on about 15min intervals. But then that also means they get 15min of spotlight time between their 15min breaks. Now, i haven't run D20 System yet (only played it), so i have no idea if this is "normal" for the system, or peculiar to your group. I know that a round of combat sometimes lasted as much as 10-15min Back in the Day with AD&D--but that was a group of 9-15 players (usually with the players controlling about 1.5 characters each, what with NPC allies and all), and only for the big combats. I've routinely DMed through a round with 10 PCs in ~5min.

Oh, and i've yet to play in a D20 System, or run a D&D, combat that only lasted 3 rounds, which probably changes things a bit. 45min is a bit on the long side for my taste, but pretty typical for what actually occurs. It's just the fact that that's 3 rounds for you, rather than 10, that i find surprising--maybe if i was resolving combats in 3 rounds, i wouldn't mind as much that they took 15min each.

 

[woodelf]

Oh yes, Index cards are excellent for that.
It also helps if the players really are prepared to go on their turn.
And if helps to keep the NPCs actions going quick as well.

You can really speed up the combat with such organization tips. However, there are some things that just will be slower with such a huge number of players. Seven is kinda a lot. I'd not want to go over five, with perhaps four being ideal. It is enough for diversity, and yet it is small enough that everyone can generally feel engaged most of the time.

After a certain number, it begins to get better. 1-2 is usually too few, but can work for some genres/settings/styles/scenarios. 3-4 works great, and is ideal for some genres/styles/settings, but on the light side for others. Around 5 or 6 players i find works great for other genres/settings/styles. Somewhere in the 6-7 range is where it starts to be too many, almost regardless of the game. And more players only makes it worse. until somewhere around 9 or 10. At that point, the game gets noticably better, and continues to get better through numbers of at least 15 or 17. But it's completely different from a small-group game (and, like other group sizes, simply won't work for certain genre/setting/style/scenario combinations). So, IME, big groups aren't a problem, and small groups aren't a problem--middle-sized ones are. They are big enough to have the flaws of big groups, but not big enough to have the strengths, and likewise for small groups. They're basically the worst of both worlds.

 

[Creamsteak]

ANYTHING that might help us speed up our combats?

This is some advice I gave on how to deal with large groups, but you might find that the same applies to any slow game:

Some Ideas: Use Initiative Cards, Spell Cards, Feat Cards (gonna have to create these yourself), special attack cards (trip, disarm, bull rush, sunder, charge), monster cards, pre-roll initiative, and use miniatures. These all help for their individual purposes, the goal here is to put all the information a player would need to consider for their combat round directly in front of them.

Initiative cards are used so that you know exactly where combat is at, and can go through the deck in order without fail.

Spell cards of all prepared (or known for spontaneous casters) spells keep the mages from needing time with their players handbook. If you issue one card for each instance of the spell known, the player can "hand the card over to the DM" in a HeroQuest/Magic the Addiction manner. This makes your player of a spellcaster that isn't a complete and total master of his spell-list into a much faster element.

Feat Cards, Special Attack Type Cards, and possibly Skill Cards do the same thing as spell cards, but for monks, fighters, and rogues. This way, you'll never need to look up grapple, bull rush, or sunder. Even if you know these rules, this lets the player look at his "hand" and quickly assertain if he should use these methods, rather than sitting there trying to think of which one is appropriate or if he should perform a regular attack. Skill Cards aren't all that useful, but maybe listing the by the book DCs would help players make judgement calls to guess how difficult a skill is going to be.

Monster Cards and Pre-Rolling Initiative are just methods to speed up the DMs actions as much as possible. Roll all your dice together, and designate which dice represents which attack and which damage (I have 4 sets just for this). Monster Cards aren't necessary if your book-keeping is good, but since mine are the same size as my initiative cards, I use them in place and they include special attacks/qualities descriptions.

Miniatures, I do recall you have. The more players you have, the more you need to have precision placement of everything. You don't need this advice, but it's still worth pointing out.

 

[Philip]

A small things that helped me to cut down combat time by some 20% (we already use a lot of the suggestion provided by others in this thread):

- Roll first, calculate modifiers later.
Many players seem to want to calculate the exact modifier to their attack roll or saving throw before they roll the die. (+2 from flanking, +1 from a prayer, +2 from the bull's strength, but that doesn't stack with my gauntlets etc.). Most of the time it doesn't matter, they roll high or low enough so that a success or failure is apparent without the modifier. I sometimes feel like reciting a mantra: 'roll, roll, roll!' but they need to be constantly reminded to roll instead of calculate. You can always calculate later.
(The same is true for spells, its often irrelevant to look up the spell's effect is the target makes its save. Roll first, lookup later.)

- Roll, roll, roll!
When combat is taking a long time, each player seems to want to extend his moment in the spotlight. They keep shaking that die in their hands, even after they have comitted their action. I only allow this at critical moments (when a PC is about to die, or an action is resolved that could turn the tide of battle). Otherwise I keep on droning my mantra.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Buy a one-minute hourglass and give each player at most one minute to complete their action including dice rolls. If the minute is up and they aren't done then leave them where they are. The players have just as much of a responsibility to making the game flow as the DM. The player with all the mods might consider making a spreadsheet with all the mods worked out ahead of time depending on the situation. I had a player like that who consistently played Ork Barbarians. Everytime he raged he'd have to figure out the math all over again and when the party mage threw Bulls Strength on him it made it even worse since often times he'd add too much or too little. I told he didn't make a spreadsheet with all of the possible mods worked out ahead of time that I'd kill off his character and not allow him to play a Barbarian ever again. The spreadsheet worked like a dream.

 

[wocky]

I agree with D+1 appreciations on "rolling all dice at once" and index cards.

My two cents:

1. I use index cards with all stats for monsters (in a nice, very usable format... nothing like a stat block, more like a condensed character sheet), and try to precalculate the effects of its most important abilities (rage, spell-like abilities and such).
2. Players usually take a long time picking spells or reading stuff like ranges, components, damage cap, etc. This can be easily solved with "spell cards", which can be bought, or downloaded free (in their "blank" incarnation) from The Other Game Company.