Smackdown time, need 4

[Jeremy]

It's only going to have 4000 some hit points.

One 7000 damage hit will do for it. Just find a couple ways to make sure it hits.

And of course make sure you hit it with two twinned disjunctions and a quickened disjuntion in the first round. Never can be too sure.

 

[Berk]

disjunction, not always gonna work most likely, if by 86th level you haven't found a way to get around disjunction then something is wrong. Not only do you get a will save but you can always create an epic spell that will let you ignore it. As for even getting close enough to do a charge attack that's a completely different story. This isn't a disposable dragon. My brother should be a member of BADD cuz he almost always plays dragons as they should be played. Sure our 20th level group says let's go dragon hunting, but that's only cuz we each walk around with over 20mil worth in equipment.

Also forgot to mention, Monte's Book's of Eldritch Might, all 3, are also usable.

 

[Jeremy]

Disjunction allows a will save for your items. As far as I can tell, it auto dispels all buffs, which is the important part (I could be wrong). If it has say an antimagic field up that it intends to dismiss before it attacks, you've got 5 chances to drop it and dispel him anyways.

Any magical items he happens to roll 1's on or you actually beat his saves with, is just gravy.

Besides, he's a 19th level sorcerer, 35 level wizard. An 86th level wizard will have greater spell capability and greater defense piercing ability than a 35 level one. Or at least he should. That's 51 more levels of perfecting your craft.

Check out what these 4 characters become in their before and after stat blocks of just day duration buffs. Over here. And that's just with 16 levels.

This guy has 19 sorcerer levels (with full access to pick spells from the cleric list for his spells known if he so chooses) and 35 levels of wizard. He's gonna be hella buffed. Maybe with things that can stop the 7000 damage attack. Drop those buffs first, with no SR/No save Disjunctions, and one dead dragon.

As it stands, the only way to stop a disjunction is an antimagic shell (won't work worth squat at this level), a counter spell (that's why you are casting 5 of them in the first round), or by disrupting the caster. If you want to add custom made spells then the entire ball game is different because again, the good guys can have 51 more caster levels. They can make up no save, no sr kill red dragon spells. Or spell ripper spells. Or de-buff spells all at more powerful levels than the defenses the dragon can invent them at.

 

[Victim]

SR 104 shouldn't be to hard to beat. Let's say the spellcaster in question is only level 84 because he made some Epic spells or something (needs a 20). Any caster not focused exclusively on buffing should have Epic Spell Penetration for +6 (needs a 14). FR stuff is used, so a wizard could have all kinds of stuff and a cleric would have 5 levels of Heirophant - so the Harming cleric could have +10 or +8 spellpower. That's a 6 needed to beat the SR. The Pale Green Ioun adds to caster level checks. The apparent cost for an upgraded version is 10000 x bonus^2. A +5 no space version would be very cheap. An Epic version would have an even greater effect, but would actually cost an appreciable amount. So defeating 104 SR is almost automatic. We could have Candles of Invocation, Karma beads, etc. Wizards could have Archmage, Red Wizard, Shadow Adept, Elemental Savant and so forth so even better spell power.

The reason I used an Epic Dispel was so that you also have the opportunity to counterspell. Rip away the dragon's buffs with Disjunction or Hyper-Dispel, shut him down with counterspells so his own spell ability is useless, and kill him. That way, even if your 1 round kill attempts fail, he stays locked down so you can beat him up slowly.

Another attack method might use Soul Strike from R&R, since it deals Con damage even on a successful save. Fire off a bunch with Automatic Quicken Spell and Multispell, and watch the Con damage rack up.

Using the BoEMs makes it easier. The dragon will still be shut down because it's easy to win caster level checks against him, and you can fire Squamos Pulse that will deal lots of damage and strip his natural armor.

 

[Berk]

Check out what these 4 characters become in their before and after stat blocks of just day duration buffs. Over here. And that's just with 16 levels.

spell dancer class is broke and does not get used. being able to cast a level 60 spell theoretically at level 5 is just plain old silly.

SR 104 shouldn't be to hard to beat. Let's say the spellcaster in question is only level 84 because he made some Epic spells or something (needs a 20). Any caster not focused exclusively on buffing should have Epic Spell Penetration for +6 (needs a 14). FR stuff is used, so a wizard could have all kinds of stuff and a cleric would have 5 levels of Heirophant - so the Harming cleric could have +10 or +8 spellpower. That's a 6 needed to beat the SR. The Pale Green Ioun adds to caster level checks. The apparent cost for an upgraded version is 10000 x bonus^2. A +5 no space version would be very cheap. An Epic version would have an even greater effect, but would actually cost an appreciable amount. So defeating 104 SR is almost automatic. We could have Candles of Invocation, Karma beads, etc. Wizards could have Archmage, Red Wizard, Shadow Adept, Elemental Savant and so forth so even better spell power.

The reason I used an Epic Dispel was so that you also have the opportunity to counterspell. Rip away the dragon's buffs with Disjunction or Hyper-Dispel, shut him down with counterspells so his own spell ability is useless, and kill him. That way, even if your 1 round kill attempts fail, he stays locked down so you can beat him up slowly.

Another attack method might use Soul Strike from R&R, since it deals Con damage even on a successful save. Fire off a bunch with Automatic Quicken Spell and Multispell, and watch the Con damage rack up.

Using the BoEMs makes it easier. The dragon will still be shut down because it's easy to win caster level checks against him, and you can fire Squamos Pulse that will deal lots of damage and strip his natural armor.

if you think you can get close enough. It's all epic proportions. you must accomidate for epic spells that will be cast and epic buff spells that will already be cast. Yes both sides will have epic spells, but neither will most likely know what kind of epic spells.

 

[Jeremy]

spell dancer class is broke and does not get used.

That's one character out of 4, I was referring to what buffs do to the other characters since spell dancers are disallowed in this experiment.

you must accomidate for epic spells that will be cast and epic buff spells that will already be cast.

Again, the epic spells variable is almost a non-entity as the there are 51 levels in disparagy between the creators of the epic spells. In a spell contest, an 86th level wizard should beat a 35th level wizard every time. That part of the equation should be simple.

Leaving it back to, debuff, slaughter.

 

[Berk]

you seem to forget that this also happens to be a dragon, an advanced collasal paragon great red wyrm. if it would be that easy then there would be no dragons around cuz they would have been killed off a long time ago.

 

[palin]

Some Additional Clarifications...

Thought I'd just check in before going to a meeting....

The dragon ends up being a 48th level sorcerer (from being a paragon, advanced dragon) and a 35th level wizard/archmage to boot.

And my take after re-re-re-re-reading Mordenkainen's Disjunction is that it only affects active spells and spell-like effects, not spell like abilities or supernatural abilities. Spell like abilities, Supernatural abilities and spells that are already active are canceled, but they can be re-activated as soon as the charcter gets an action.

I'd have to think about an MD vs. an Epic Spell. I don't think it should just automagically cancel it. I would probably treat it as a very, very, very powerful dispell type affect.

 

[AuraSeer]

Re: Some Additional Clarifications...

And my take after re-re-re-re-reading Mordenkainen's Disjunction is that it only affects active spells and spell-like effects, not spell like abilities or supernatural abilities. Spell like abilities, Supernatural abilities and spells that are already active are canceled, but they can be re-activated as soon as the charcter gets an action.

Active spells and abilities are ended, full stop. They can be recast, but that takes the normal casting time. (Spell-like abilities require a standard action.) Even if they're quickened, you have a finite allotment of quickened actions per round. Would you rather spend your time re-casting your dispelled buffs, or doing something useful, like attacking the enemy? Keep in mind that if you do re-buff, the PC wizard will just dispel you again, while the others attack for damage.

 

[Jeremy]

you seem to forget that this also happens to be a dragon, an advanced collasal paragon great red wyrm. if it would be that easy then there would be no dragons around cuz they would have been killed off a long time ago.

Nope. I'm very well aware of that fact. My point was, that in the race for more powerful epic spells, the straight wizard wins.

And in the question of who can do the most melee damage, the straight warrior wins. So if the wizard is powerful enough (he should be) to remove the protections of the dragon, leaving him exposed to the warrior...

Well, Souljourner has already shown you that 7000+ points of damage can be dealt in a single round. And he did it in a 5 minute post off the top of his head.

Unless I missed something, the dragon is not going to have 7000 hp. If that's the case, and his in place spell effects are shut down (even if he can activate every single one of them again next round), there is a better than average chance he will die in the first round.

That is my point.

Yes, he's big bad, tough, and ugly. But without spells already in place to protect him (again, see my prevous point about more powerful casters having access to more powerful epic spells), then the dragon is forced to face the full ferocity of what an 86th level melee smackdown can accomplish. And he just doesn't have the HP or the AC without spells in effect on him.

He's not weak, he's just in a situation (high level arena match experiment) that doesn't play to his strengths. Fighting fair puts him at a disadvantage because it's 4 on 1.