Small Rogue / Swordsage TWF Build Advice

[Mistwell]

I am considering joining a 10th level game that is going into the Underdark. Pretty much any WOTC books are allowed (Complete series, Races series, Bo9s, PHB2, Environmental books, etc.), and since this takes place in the Forgotten Realms those books are fine.

I'd like to play a shorter race like Halfling or Strongheart Halfling on this one.

The backstory will be a roguish character's hometown was attacked by Drow. Initially out of fear he hid. Eventually he got the guts to come out of hiding and attack, managing to kill the Drow leader of the raiding party. However, not before some of his loved ones were killed in the attack. The character is entering the Underdark to seek revenge against whoever sent the Drow above-ground, and to try and redeem himself.

The character's tactics will include sneaking and swiftly striking his foes using using two daggers (two-weapon fighting with them), and hopefully getting back out or having an AC enough to avoid a nasty melee response. Essentially a sneaky striker.

The build will be 32 point buy, starting at 10th level, with appropriate 10th level equipment. He will probably have high Dex, then Con, then Wis, with adequate Str and Int and low Charisma.

I do not know the party composition much right now (I know of a mage, a warblade, and a druid, but there are others), other than my character is not "needed" to fill a missing party roll. So, while he is a rogue, I am not concerned that he will be needing to fill a certain skill or traps role.

Right now I am considering a Rogue / Swordsage (primarily Swordsage). I am considering levels in the following prestige classes: Some levels of Assassin (actually the Avenger Variant from the WOTC bonus article); and two levels of Bloodclaw Master (from Bo9s, grants Superior Two Weapon Fighting).

For feats, I'm looking at Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade (+Dex to Attack, +Dex to Damage), Two-Weapon Fighting, Craven (Champions of Ruin, gives bonus to sneak attack damage), and I am contemplating Gloom Razor, Stormguard Warrior, and Adaptive Style (all from Bo9s).

Maneuvers and Stances will be mostly in the Shadow Hand discipline (Island of Blades, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Assassin's Stance), with many Tiger Claw ones as well for two-weapon fighting (Wolf Fang Strike, Dancing Mongoose, and Sudden Leap to get out of some jams), and a small smattering of others to fill in some things like ranged attacks and overcoming DR /Hardness (Fan the Flames, Mountain Hammer, and Emerald Razor if I can pull it off).

Can I get some thoughts and advice on this build? Suggestions are welcome!

 

[moritheil]

I am considering joining a 10th level game that is going into the Underdark. Pretty much any WOTC books are allowed (Complete series, Races series, Bo9s, PHB2, Environmental books, etc.), and since this takes place in the Forgotten Realms those books are fine.

I'd like to play a shorter race like Halfling or Strongheart Halfling on this one.

Have you considered deep halflings? Also, strongly consider the dark template from ToM, as it gives you HiPS and racial bonuses to hide at the cost of +1 LA. (No need to stack dark with deep halfling - as you already have darkvision, it just means you'll lose your move silently bonus.)

 

[griff_goodbeard]

Are you locked into halfling?

I might go:

Whisper Gnome (darkvision, bonus to hide, + to dex and con)
Rogue 2/ Swordsage 4/ BloodClawmaster 2/ Swordsage 2

Nets you:
+6 BAB/ F 5/ R 11/ W 5
IL 9
Feats: Silencing Strike, Titan Fighting, W Finesse, Shadow Blade

 

[Mistwell]

Have you considered deep halflings? Also, strongly consider the dark template from ToM, as it gives you HiPS and racial bonuses to hide at the cost of +1 LA. (No need to stack dark with deep halfling - as you already have darkvision, it just means you'll lose your move silently bonus.)

I have not read Tome of Magic, though I know the DM allows that book as he ran something from it in our last game. I will have to check it out. I am not committed to this being a halfling, nor to this being an above-ground character (his home could well have been in the Underdark, and he can meet up with the party entering from above fairly easily once they reach the Underdark).

I was considering some magic item that grants darkvision, and a ring of the darkhidden. But, a template that grants darkvision and hide in plain sight would be pretty fun with this character.

 

[Nifft]

For playing a Striker, IMHO Rogue is a distraction. Make a pure sneaky Swordsage. You won't need TWF unless you decide to go Tiger Claw... but Tiger Claw is cool.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mistwell]

For playing a Striker, IMHO Rogue is a distraction. Make a pure sneaky Swordsage. You won't need TWF unless you decide to go Tiger Claw... but Tiger Claw is cool.

Cheers, -- N

For a level of Rogue (+1d6 sneak attack), level of assassin (+1d6 sneak attack), assassins stance (+2d6 sneak attack), and the craven feat (+10 damage to sneak attacks), and Dex to attack (probably +6 from weapon finesse) and damage (probably +6 from shadow blade) I'm actually doing a devastating amount of sneak attack damage, with each dagger, and both daggers will probably hit because I have no two weapon fighting penalty (two weapon fighting plus Bloodclaw level 2). And I will be able to move and attack with both weapons most rounds with tiger claw maneuvers and a magic item (like Claw Gloves, which allows dual attack on a charge). How is that a distraction? Sure seems right in line with the striker concept.

What Swordsage build would you suggest makes a better striker? I am open to that possibility, it just seemed like sneak attack and dual weapon fits well with the concept.

 

[moritheil]

How is that a distraction? Sure seems right in line with the striker concept.

By "striker" I assume you mean "hitter" or damage dealer.

Won't dipping into all those other classes (assassin etc.) ruin your BAB? And won't your hitter ability be severely compromised when you can't make sneak attacks?

 

[Nifft]

I will be able to move and attack with both weapons most rounds with tiger claw maneuvers and a magic item (like Claw Gloves, which allows dual attack on a charge). How is that a distraction? Sure seems right in line with the striker concept.

Okay, if you can do that AND ensure you can always flank, it's a reasonable concept.

(If you want the best Sneak Attack, why take Swordsage at all? You could be a straight Rogue 10 with Martial Study (anything Shadow Hand) at 6th or 9th level, and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) as your 10th level Rogue special ability.)

What Swordsage build would you suggest makes a better striker?

A build that isn't exclusively focused around sneak attack, full attacks, and TWF. For example, including Diamond Mind strikes -- either Insightful if you're weak, or Nightmare Blade if you're strong.

The initial TWF feat isn't a waste, but IMHO the goodies you'd get as an initiator are better than what you'd get as a Rogue or Assassin.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mistwell]

By "striker" I assume you mean "hitter" or damage dealer.

Won't dipping into all those other classes (assassin etc.) ruin your BAB? And won't your hitter ability be severely compromised when you can't make sneak attacks?

Dex to attack, usually opponent denied dex bonus to AC, weapon focus, sometimes melee touch attack, and two attacks a round with a standard action. I am not too worried about hitting.

As for compromised when cannot make sneak attack, yes. I can try and address that with augment crystals, or find another tactic for those situations.

Though again I am open to a different build, I just have not seen one written up yet. If folks think straight swordsage is better, what do you suggest (specifically)?

By the way, I took a look at the Dark template. A Dark Strongheart Halfling would indeed be an interesting idea. A Dark Whisper Gnome would also be interesting (though darkvision is wasted for the second time).

Here is what the Dark template adds:

Speed: Base Speed increased by +10
Skills: Hide +8 unnamed bonus, Move Silent +6 unnamed bonus
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.;
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)(Any terrain except natural daylight or similar spell effect);
Resistance to Cold 10
Superior Low-Light Vision.
Level Adjustment: +1

A Dark Whisper Gnome would have:
Base Speed: 40
Abilities: +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Str, -2 Chr
Size: Small (+1 size bonus to AC, +1 size bonus to Attacks)
Vision: Superior Low-Light vision, Darkvision 60

Skills: +8 unnamed bonus on Hide, +4 racial bonus on Hide, +4 size bonus to Hide, +6
unnamed bonus to Move Silent, +4 racial bonus on Move Silent, +2 racial bonus on Listen,
+2 racial bonus on Spot.

Special Qualities: Resistance to Cold 10, Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day Silence (self)
Favored Class: Rogue
Level Adjustment: +1

Wow. That's +16 to Hide, another +6 from Dex, 13 ranks in Hide at level 10, for a total Hide at level 10 of 35 not counting magic items, all with Hide in Plain Sight. Move Silent is at 29. Almost nothing is going to detect that character until it's too late.

 

[szilard]

You might also want to consider two levels of Ranger - favored enemy fits the concept, and you'd get two weapon fighting as a bonus fear (with Track, good BAB and saves, and stuff).

-Stuart