Sneak Attack: A Little Too Powerful?

[reapersaurus]

Azlan: did you read the previous threads i linked to?

Did you see some of the same stuff mentioned?
The people who don't see a problem with the rogue just don't see a problem with the rogue!

There's nothing that anybody can say to change their opinion.

Just like there's nothing wrong with your opinion.

Don't look for conclusive evidence and acquiescence to your point that sneak attacks make the rogue unbalanced.

I think that the benefits in combat to sneak attacks make the rogue unbalanced.
But that's not really because the rogue is too damned powerful in combat - it's like a couple wise people have already said:

It's because the other classes are so damned weak out of combat.

Simple solution: fix the skills system some way.
I think the easiest (and the many people are playing, actually) is to give everyone 2 more skill points per level, and I'd add in more class skills for all.

 

[Azlan]

Sorry, Weeble, but I was just a little bit annoyed that you cut and pasted that long and dense block of text into my post, rather than taking a minute to edit out all that off-topic material, thus saving us from having to read through all of it in order to get the nitty-gritty. (Already, these posts tend to be verbose and unending.)

And when I tried pointing this out to you, it was you who got edgy with me by saying, "Let me give you a simple reason: CUT and PASTE." Like I hadn't figured that out, already.

 

[Malin Genie]

I think on paper Sneak Attacks are incredibly good, and Sneak Attack smacks can deal immense amounts of damage.

In practice, I haven't seen the rogues outshine (or even come close to equalling) the Fighters in combat.

Part of the reason is that they can't always get into flanking position.

Part of the reason is that they rarely get full attacks in flanking position; and if they do, they tend to get full-attacked in return.

Part of the reason is they don't hit as often. Even with Finesse (and remember that Rogues get only a very limited number of Feats, and can't take Finesse at all until 3rd level) they're less likely to have Weapon Focus, they have fewer attacks, and a lower BAB.

With their lower hp, they can't take the punishment; and if they want to Tumble, they can only wear light armour. If they don't want to Tumble, then they often get AoOed getting into position.

As another poster pointed out, to be really effective outside combat, a rogue has to dilute his ability point spending (and if you're silly enough not to use point buy and have a rogue with high stats across the board - well, duh!) In my campaigns (all point buy) I haven't seen Rogues with Str or Con over 12.

Rings of Blinking are one way to do a Rogue smack. IMHO that says more about unbalanced magic items than an unbalanced ability.

So I don't know. I keep looking at well-designed rogue smacks and thinking "Sheesh! This is ridiculous!"

But in the campaigns I actually play in, I just don't see Sneak Attack unbalancing things at all.

 

[Nasma]

How do you get the quote?

This was posted by Xerier
____________________________________________________
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 8 - Starting (28 point buy, subtract from Con for lower points). At 20th level, with a good dex granting book, he can have 34 dex (with a +6 dex granting item, and a +6 str granting item would be nice but is not necessary)

Feats: Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse (Shortsword), Weapon Focus (Shortsword), Improved Initiative, Quick Draw

So, give him two short swords, +5, ghost touch, of speed (mithral for kicks).
____________________________________________________

come on, I mean any 20th level character is going to kick butt. I would prefer to face the rouge than a 20th level fighter dual wielding keen vorpal scimitars with improved critical. Or a mage with time stop and imprisonment.

 

[Darkness]

How do you get the quote?

Like this: (quote)insert quoted text here(/quote), but replace ( and ) with [ and ].

Or else hit the quote button that appears on the bottom right of every post.

 

[Darkness]

Surely, it's best that I keep my edge. Just a cursory read of the messages on this board will show that this is not the place for sensitive, unconfident, or weak-minded individuals. (Not that I've seen anyone like that around here.) At least I keep my criticism and sarcasm on-topic, and do not go about trolling or making personal attacks on people just for the fun of it. (Not that I'm saying that you do, Jeremy.)

Lighten up a bit!
You really don't need an "edge" around here most of the time: Just "attack" the point a person presents rather than the person him/herself, and you should be just fine.

 

[Macbrea]

The thing that worries me about the rogue is the Core Rules Smackdown that a single-classed one pulls off -

Amazingly that rogue is eaten alive by:

a lich
iron golem
A well placed symbol of death
any spell requiring a Fortitude or Will save
A 5th level kobold shaman with charm person
17th level rogues or barbarians
any person with a blur spell on.
ect.


That amazing sneak attack doesn't do a bit of good if you cannot make a save. Simple fortified armor will nullify the rogue entirely.


His damage drops to 1d6+4 (right)/1d6+3 (left). Any gamemaster can quickly nullify any bonus the rogue may have.

 

[Azlan]

Azlan: did you read the previous threads i linked to?

Did you see some of the same stuff mentioned?
The people who don't see a problem with the rogue just don't see a problem with the rogue!

There's nothing that anybody can say to change their opinion.

Yes, I did read those other posts. Thanks for pointing them out to me.

I guess my primary motive for starting this post, here, was to see what kind of feedback I'd get for wanting to fine-tune the rogue's sneak attack down a little bit. See, I've been thinking about this for quite some time now, but I haven't yet tried to implement it with my players. I wanted to see first just how radical and controversial my thoughts might be, and to test my thinking to see if it might prove faulty.

 

[Vaxalon]

In DnD, everyone has combat utility. Mages have big spells, Clerics have somewhat less spells and some fighting, fighters have lots of melee goodness, and rogues have sneak attacks. Some are more useful in some situations than others, but they all have a role to play.

 

[Darklone]

Some things.

Ok. Sneak attack may be horribly useful. Right. It may be horribly useless. A lvl2 barbarian has Uncanny dodge as well as a lvl3 rogue. Enough to avoid ranged sneak attacks in the surprise round. Skeletons are very common monsters for low level groups. Zombies too.

For higher levels... concealment and fortification armours have been mentioned by others. Blur is nice for that one too.

It depends on the campaign if a rogue can shine or not. But Azlan: The rogue in your example is likely to be toast in a normal fight. Simply not enough hitpoints. Two good chops from an orc with greataxe could take him down and this happened often enough in my groups (Rogue tumbled into flanking position on the enemy orc chieftain, another two orcs charged, one of them into flanking position, rogue requiem).