ConcreteBuddha
First Post
James McMurray said:
I kill more rogues this way...
Sneak Attack: A Little Too Powerful?
- Thread starter Azlan
- Start date
I kill more rogues this way...
Crothian said:
How does that help you avoid being flanked? On a square-grid map, there's still room to have an opponent on either side of you (and another three in front of you, if there's enough opponents), even with your back against a wall.
Since up to eight attackers can gang up on a single defender, having your back against the wall merely prevents three attackers from getting behind you.
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Crothian
First Post
Azlan said:
By doing this you can easily prevent the from flanking you. It takes a little movement and planning, but it can be done. Or you go into a corner. It depends on the circumstances and the suounding of course, but it can be done. The rogue will get a sneak attack in every now and again, that can't be helped and is the way the game is set up.
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Why is it that the PCs are fighting a lone bad guy all the time, or even most of the time?
Whatever happened to patrols of orcs? Or a company of drow? Or a slew of demons? Why are we nerfing the bad guys ability to band together and using that as a comparison for why sneak attack is broken?
Solo bad guys are not the norm, IMHO. Especially in sentient races. Sneak attack becomes moot when looked at in these situations, which IMX, are typical. The rogue can just be obliterated when enemies gang up.
Unless you enjoy DMing solitary orcs who throw themselves against the party one by one...
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Off topic: Sneak attacking a dragon is a pain...
Whatever happened to patrols of orcs? Or a company of drow? Or a slew of demons? Why are we nerfing the bad guys ability to band together and using that as a comparison for why sneak attack is broken?
Solo bad guys are not the norm, IMHO. Especially in sentient races. Sneak attack becomes moot when looked at in these situations, which IMX, are typical. The rogue can just be obliterated when enemies gang up.
Unless you enjoy DMing solitary orcs who throw themselves against the party one by one...
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.
.
.
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Off topic: Sneak attacking a dragon is a pain...
Crothian
First Post
Let's just put up some offensive numbers and see what happens. All numbers are rounded down. I'm ignoring crits.
Fighter 5th. Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14. AC 22 (+1 plate armor & large shield ). HPs: 40. +1 Bastardsword (Specialized), Attack Bonus +11, Damage: d10+7.
Rogue 5th. Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12. AC 19 (+1 chain shirt & MW buckler). HPs: 23. +1 Rapier (w/ Weapon Finesse), Attack Bonus: +8, Damage: d6+2 (+3d6 w/ Sneak Attack).
Against AC 20 opponet, Figher hits on a 9+ (60%), Rogue hits on a 12+ (45%). Average damage for a fighter is 12, average for the rogue is 5 (15 with sneak attack).
Over 10 rounds the fighter hits 6 times for a total of 72 damage. The rogue hits 4 times for 20 damage, or 60 damage if all attacks were sneak attacks.
Fighter 5th. Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14. AC 22 (+1 plate armor & large shield ). HPs: 40. +1 Bastardsword (Specialized), Attack Bonus +11, Damage: d10+7.
Rogue 5th. Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12. AC 19 (+1 chain shirt & MW buckler). HPs: 23. +1 Rapier (w/ Weapon Finesse), Attack Bonus: +8, Damage: d6+2 (+3d6 w/ Sneak Attack).
Against AC 20 opponet, Figher hits on a 9+ (60%), Rogue hits on a 12+ (45%). Average damage for a fighter is 12, average for the rogue is 5 (15 with sneak attack).
Over 10 rounds the fighter hits 6 times for a total of 72 damage. The rogue hits 4 times for 20 damage, or 60 damage if all attacks were sneak attacks.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
A few things to point out regarding this debate:
1. The examples are biased by placing the characters at 5th level. 5th level is a best case scenario for rogue vs. fighter or ranger because the fighter and ranger have not yet got multiple attacks and the rogue's BAB is only 2 points behind theirs. At 6th level, the fighter has two attacks, the ranger has two or three attacks (depending on whether or not he uses TWF), and the rogue still only has one. Running the comparison at 6th level would be much more to the fighter's advantage (in the same way that running it at 1st or 9th level (improved TWF) would be to the Ranger's advantage.
Even when the rogue has more than one attack, considering that the rogue will usually need to tumble in order to get into a flanking position, the rogue will often be limited to one sneak attack per round (unless hasted).
2. The stats were initially biased in favor of the rogue. Now they are stacked against the ranger. Using the point buy system from the DMG, an 18 and two 12s cost slightly more than a 16 and two 14s. This is justified since an 18 can usually be leveraged in more than one way (via weapon finesse, multiclassing, etc.)
3. As others pointed out, longsword/shortsword is not an ideal combination for the ranger. Bastard sword/shortsword would give more damage and dual shortswords with weapon focus and weapon finesse would give a better attack rating. Bastard Sword (or longsword) and Spiked Shield (or shield of bashing) would give better defense whether or not it was combined with the Shield Expert feat (if it's not combined with the Shield Expert feat, the character still gets the AC bonus whenever he can't make a full attack and when flatfooted). For the absolute maximum damage approach, the ranger would wield greatsword/armor spikes.
1. The examples are biased by placing the characters at 5th level. 5th level is a best case scenario for rogue vs. fighter or ranger because the fighter and ranger have not yet got multiple attacks and the rogue's BAB is only 2 points behind theirs. At 6th level, the fighter has two attacks, the ranger has two or three attacks (depending on whether or not he uses TWF), and the rogue still only has one. Running the comparison at 6th level would be much more to the fighter's advantage (in the same way that running it at 1st or 9th level (improved TWF) would be to the Ranger's advantage.
Even when the rogue has more than one attack, considering that the rogue will usually need to tumble in order to get into a flanking position, the rogue will often be limited to one sneak attack per round (unless hasted).
2. The stats were initially biased in favor of the rogue. Now they are stacked against the ranger. Using the point buy system from the DMG, an 18 and two 12s cost slightly more than a 16 and two 14s. This is justified since an 18 can usually be leveraged in more than one way (via weapon finesse, multiclassing, etc.)
3. As others pointed out, longsword/shortsword is not an ideal combination for the ranger. Bastard sword/shortsword would give more damage and dual shortswords with weapon focus and weapon finesse would give a better attack rating. Bastard Sword (or longsword) and Spiked Shield (or shield of bashing) would give better defense whether or not it was combined with the Shield Expert feat (if it's not combined with the Shield Expert feat, the character still gets the AC bonus whenever he can't make a full attack and when flatfooted). For the absolute maximum damage approach, the ranger would wield greatsword/armor spikes.
Steven McRownt
First Post
IMHO Sneak Attack is not unbalanced. It gives to a rouge the taste of riskin' his life launchin' him into a melee fight, something that a 2nd AD&D thief hadn't the chance to. No more precious rounds wasted moving silently and hiding in shadows to approach the enemy's back... but the real fighting experience! Anyway, an experience that could not be compared to the one that the "fighting" classes can have, and not versus every opponent.
Another point of view is the one of a min-maxer: a ranger/rouge can be very dangerous, but this is going off topic anyway....
My 2 cents, for whom want to listen... not just defend his ideas to death!
Steven McRownt
Another point of view is the one of a min-maxer: a ranger/rouge can be very dangerous, but this is going off topic anyway....
My 2 cents, for whom want to listen... not just defend his ideas to death!
Steven McRownt
ConcreteBuddha said:
Um, a typical patrol of orcs would not give a group of 5th level player characters much of a challenge, especially if one or two of those PCs had the Cleave feat -- which is almost always the case. (But that's a different debate altogether.)
Against a group of 5th level characters?! What am I, a killer DM?
