Sneak Attack: A Little Too Powerful?
- Thread starter Azlan
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Crothian said:
I dislike this dichotomy in 3E D&D, where a roleplaying game become a sort of chess match or a game of one-upmanship between the DM and the players. Again and again, I've been told on this post that, as a DM, I'm simply not playing my monsters smart enough.
Anyway... since when are orcs supposed to be master strategists and tacticians?
Evidently, I'm the ONLY one here who thinks sneak attacks may be a little -- just a little, for pete's sake -- too powerful. But you, Crothian, have masterfully rebuffed me and debunked my faulty logic.
With over 3,000 posts under your belt, I guess you've gotten pretty good at debating these 3E D&D rules.
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Shard O'Glase
First Post
I can kind of see your point so no not everyone totally disagrees with you. Seriously they made a conscious effort to ballance the classes. The problems crop up in that they weighted combat as the biggest thing in the balance issue, so they made sure everyone were roughly in the same ballpark in combat skills, whether it was from normal beat sowns, spells, sneak attacks, or whatver everyone is roughly on the same playing field overall in a fight. Certain situations are better for certain classes, fighters are the best generalists in that their attack power rarely decreases in any field, while rogues are decent in a standard fight(good weapons, mid level bab), they become superlative in their style of fighting stealth, flanking etc.
This all works out fine if you play the standard(what core rules assumes is standard)campaign. And that is adventures much like a dungeon crawl. You play in games where the fights come less often a day and outside skills are more needed, diplomacy is expected then the balance starts to slide. Because considering that they weighted combat as the most important thing the fighter being overall the best in a fight meant he sucks at everything else. The classes who provided more out of combat abilities start to shine, yeah for the rogue.
In campaigns like this then yes sneak attack may be unblanced since the rogue is frequently shinning out of fights, but when the fights happen he still looks good. Wiz/sor really get the hook up in single fight per day games since their limit of limited supply of spells per day is now moot. Me though I'd rather boost out of combat abilities of other classes than nerk the rogues sneak attack, this is so everyone can contribute in more situations instead of having the rogue in every scene, including fights, and then having the fihgter in fights, and then taking a breather in every other scene.
This all works out fine if you play the standard(what core rules assumes is standard)campaign. And that is adventures much like a dungeon crawl. You play in games where the fights come less often a day and outside skills are more needed, diplomacy is expected then the balance starts to slide. Because considering that they weighted combat as the most important thing the fighter being overall the best in a fight meant he sucks at everything else. The classes who provided more out of combat abilities start to shine, yeah for the rogue.
In campaigns like this then yes sneak attack may be unblanced since the rogue is frequently shinning out of fights, but when the fights happen he still looks good. Wiz/sor really get the hook up in single fight per day games since their limit of limited supply of spells per day is now moot. Me though I'd rather boost out of combat abilities of other classes than nerk the rogues sneak attack, this is so everyone can contribute in more situations instead of having the rogue in every scene, including fights, and then having the fihgter in fights, and then taking a breather in every other scene.
Crothian
First Post
Azlan said:
Actually, it's using lesser creatures to challenge the party. AS the players get smarter it's okay to allow the same thing for other creatures if there are sufficiant reasons for it. It should not just happen overnight. A good campaign can show the enmy getting smarter through a varity of encounters. As long as it supports the story, it should be okay. It should never be done to one up the PCs.
Azlan said:Evidently, I'm the ONLY one here who thinks sneak attacks may be a little -- just a little, for pete's sake -- too powerful. But you, Crothian, have masterfully rebuffed me and debunked my faulty logic.
I'm as wrong as I am right. I just enjoy argueing counter points. I don't have to even agree with what I'm argueing, I hate to see an undefended side. You can thank the debate club for that one.
Shaethe Leaflocke: 126 year old male Moon Elf Rogue 3/Fighter 3; CL 6; Medium-size humanoid; HD 3d6+3d10; Hp 45; Init +9; Spd 30ft; AC 18; Atk +7 melee (d6+2/18+/x2, +1 rapier) or +6 melee (d6+1/19+/x2, dagger x3) or +11 [+12PBS] – {+9/+9 [+10/+10PBS] Rapid Shot} ranged (d8 [+1PBS]/x3, longbow 100ft) or +10 [+11PBS] – {+8/+8 [+9/+9PBS] Rapid Shot} ranged (d4+1 [+1PBS]/19+/x2, dagger 10ft); SA Sneak attack +2d6; SQ Evasion, uncanny dodge; AL CG; SV Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +3; Str 13+1, Dex 20+5, Con 10, Int 13+1, Wis 12+1, Cha 13+1; 5ft 2in, 115lbs, long black hair, very dark green eyes, pale skin, left handed; 16,113+ xp; Next level: 21,000; Fate points 1.
Skills and Feats: Balance +13, Climb +7, Disable Device +7, Escape Artist +5 Hide +11, Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Open Lock +11, Ride +8, Search +9, Spot +9, Tumble +13, Use Rope +5; Point blank shot, weapon focus: longbow, precise shot, rapid shot, improved initiative.
Special Qualities: meditation 4hrs, immune to magical sleep and effects, +2 racial bonus vs. enchantment spells and effects, low-light vision, auto search secret and concealed doors within 5ft at –5, sneak attack +2d6, search for traps, evasion, uncanny dodge, proficient with all armor, shields, simple and martial weapons.
Languages: Common, elven, chondathan, draconic.
Possessions: Longbow, 3 quivers w/arrows, +1 rapier, 3 daggers, masterwork studded leather, traveler’s outfit, backpack, bedroll, whetstone, flint & steel, 8 days trail rations, 2 waterskins, belt pouch, masterwork thieves’ tools, potion of invisibility, potion of jumping, sack.
Wealth: 408gp.
Total weight carried: 40.66lbs Current load: light Next load: 51-100lbs
Animal Companion: light horse; saddlebags (backpack, cold weather outfit), riding saddle, bit & bridle.
This is my current character. With great Listen, Spot, MS, and Hide checks, I can get surprise often, thus a sneak attack in the partial surprise round. Then I have Improved Initiative and a 20 Dex, so I often win init. in the first round, or at least over my opponents. The first round, if I am within 30ft of my enemy, I get two sneak attacks (rapid shot, full round action only). My sneak attack damage is 2d6 at my level. One time I crit'ed in the surprise round and again in my second attack in the first round (I hit the first attack in the first round too). All three were sneak attacks, with two being crits. Ouch. But hey, imagine Legolas shafting you with three arrows before you had a chance to react.
Skills and Feats: Balance +13, Climb +7, Disable Device +7, Escape Artist +5 Hide +11, Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Open Lock +11, Ride +8, Search +9, Spot +9, Tumble +13, Use Rope +5; Point blank shot, weapon focus: longbow, precise shot, rapid shot, improved initiative.
Special Qualities: meditation 4hrs, immune to magical sleep and effects, +2 racial bonus vs. enchantment spells and effects, low-light vision, auto search secret and concealed doors within 5ft at –5, sneak attack +2d6, search for traps, evasion, uncanny dodge, proficient with all armor, shields, simple and martial weapons.
Languages: Common, elven, chondathan, draconic.
Possessions: Longbow, 3 quivers w/arrows, +1 rapier, 3 daggers, masterwork studded leather, traveler’s outfit, backpack, bedroll, whetstone, flint & steel, 8 days trail rations, 2 waterskins, belt pouch, masterwork thieves’ tools, potion of invisibility, potion of jumping, sack.
Wealth: 408gp.
Total weight carried: 40.66lbs Current load: light Next load: 51-100lbs
Animal Companion: light horse; saddlebags (backpack, cold weather outfit), riding saddle, bit & bridle.
This is my current character. With great Listen, Spot, MS, and Hide checks, I can get surprise often, thus a sneak attack in the partial surprise round. Then I have Improved Initiative and a 20 Dex, so I often win init. in the first round, or at least over my opponents. The first round, if I am within 30ft of my enemy, I get two sneak attacks (rapid shot, full round action only). My sneak attack damage is 2d6 at my level. One time I crit'ed in the surprise round and again in my second attack in the first round (I hit the first attack in the first round too). All three were sneak attacks, with two being crits. Ouch. But hey, imagine Legolas shafting you with three arrows before you had a chance to react.
Cloudgatherer
First Post
My group and I sit in the "sneak attack is too powerful" group. After using sneak attack against the group, having it used against the villains, the party's rogue player and I decided to change the sneak attack mechanic. Instead of the damage being tacked on as part of a rogue's regular attack, we made sneak attack a standard action. The action represents the rogue's focus against his opponent, striking that vital area.
As far as flanking is concerned, my party coordinates. The fighter moves into position first, and the rogue either matches initiative or readies for the sneak opportunity. Once flanked, what options do an enemy have? He can 5-foot step, full-round attack, but the rogue can still tumble-sneak again. Otherwise, he can take a double move, try to move away, but he will still draw AoO (and sneak attack damage from rogue) unless the enemy has tumble.
As far as flanking is concerned, my party coordinates. The fighter moves into position first, and the rogue either matches initiative or readies for the sneak opportunity. Once flanked, what options do an enemy have? He can 5-foot step, full-round attack, but the rogue can still tumble-sneak again. Otherwise, he can take a double move, try to move away, but he will still draw AoO (and sneak attack damage from rogue) unless the enemy has tumble.
Weeble said:
Interesting player character, Weeble. And a good example of how a well-crafted rogue (or, in this case, rogue/fighter) can be exceedinly powerful with his sneak attacks. But did we really need all that information?
We could've done without the info on his physicial description, his languages, his travelling gear, his animal companion, etc.(Ah, me! Am I getting cranky, or what?)
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Another thing that bothers me is the mechanics for a sneak attack. A sneak attack should have mechanics that are concordant with those for criticals, and not have mechanics that are like those for a weapon with an energy enchantment on it. After all, a sneak attack is a rogue attempting to strike a vital spot for extra damage, and any creature that is immune to critical hits is also not vulnerable to sneak attacks.
This is why I'm considering having the threat range and/or damage multiple for a rogue's sneak attack increase with his levels, instead of having bonus damage dice that do not multiply when a critical is scored. This way, at least, the sneak attack wouldn't be a sure thing, even if the rogue manages to get into a flanking position. (Which is fairly easy to do, when you're among a group of fellow adventurers.)
Of course, this opens up a whole new can of worms if some clever player builds a high-level rogue with the Improved Critical feat and equips him with a keen weapon.
This is why I'm considering having the threat range and/or damage multiple for a rogue's sneak attack increase with his levels, instead of having bonus damage dice that do not multiply when a critical is scored. This way, at least, the sneak attack wouldn't be a sure thing, even if the rogue manages to get into a flanking position. (Which is fairly easy to do, when you're among a group of fellow adventurers.)
Of course, this opens up a whole new can of worms if some clever player builds a high-level rogue with the Improved Critical feat and equips him with a keen weapon.
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