Sneak Attack : Do Not Maximize

[Ketjak]

Hi,

I DM Encounters this season and something happened that I did not expect: a custom rogue player maximized the damage of his sneak attack on a critical hit. Of course I ruled he shouldn't do that and had him re-roll (he moved all extra dice to 6's, obliterating the actual results - and got snake eyes), explaining that since it was extra damage it does not get maximized. This is as I've always played it based on the following chain of rules:

SNEAK ATTACK
When you make an attack with a light blade, a hand crossbow, a shortbow, or a sling and hit an enemy granting combat advantage to you, that enemy takes extra damage based on your level (see the Sneak Attack table). You can deal this extra damage only once per turn.

Critical Hit
Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

Precision: (snip)

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

Bold is mine.

At my normal table this means "critical hits do not maximize quarry or sneak attack (and so on) damage." However, I can see the interpretation that hinges on the clause "this damage" as it relates to "magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons." I expect that to be the basis of a short argument next week, which I'd like to head off by citing as clear a rules set as I can.

The Rules Compendium book is as clear as the DDI Compendium, which is to say it leaves room to wiggle/argue. The PH1 is deprecated as a source since the published RC.

The rest of the table tends to play with the same player at home, and they said they've never seen it play that way, even at conventions." I had nothing to say there that wasn't some variation of throwing their DMs under the bus, so I kept quiet.

Obviously I can simply say "it works the way I say it does" or a more polite version of that, but I'd rather cite the rules. I think the reason I didn't have an argument last week is that another DM said sort of dismissively the same thing as I - that it's extra damage and never maximizes.

To be clear, the player(s) are not min/maxers, and I am not a weak DM that lets players stomp on me or the rules. Assume this is an honest mistake, please, and that none of us are cheaters, pushovers, or tyros.

Thanks,

Ket

 

[Ryujin]

Any dice that would normally be rolled, for an attack, are maximized. Dice that are conditional upon scoring a critical, like extra damage from a high crit weapon or those from a magical weapon, are rolled.

This means that extra dice from Warlock's Curse, Hunter's Quarry, and Sneak Attack ARE maximized.

 

[Obryn]

You're incorrect; the standard rule is that sneak attack, quarry, and curse damage are all maximized. Basically, any dice you would normally roll as part of damage are maximized.

The only dice which aren't maximized - the "extra damage" your rule citation refers to - are dice which you gain because you rolled a critical hit - High Crit dice or magic item crit dice.

I think you might be thinking back to 3e, where sneak attack damage didn't get maximized.

EDIT: I think the original PHB text is clearer. When discussing what is not maximized...

Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll. (emphasis mine)

-O

 

[Ketjak]

How sure are you guys about that? Even though Sneak Attack is "extra damage" it's a different extra damage than is covered by the rules about extra damage and critical hits?

edit to respond to Obryn's edit: yes, that's the same text as I quoted from the DDI Compendium. The this is my basis for understanding there is a different interpretation.

 

[Ahrimon]

Focus on the wording for criticals. The wording in sneak attack doesn't really matter. I see how your reading it, but I beleive you are emphasising more than you need to.

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

The "this" is refering only to the extra damage you deal when you score a critical hit.

My understanding is that is the concensus here, on the official forums and from WotC.

 

[Shin Okada]

From official PHB FAQ, emphasis added by me,

10. Which dice do I maximize when scoring a critical hit?

Only the dice you would normally roll to calculate damage are maximized. If another bonus (like from a weapon or feat) causes you to roll extra damage dice when scoring a critical hit, those dice are rolled as normal.

Sneak attack dice and other extra damage dice are which "you would normally roll to calculate damage", not something caused to roll when scoring a critical hit.

 

[Ketjak]

Oh, I see it now - it's the extra damage that requires a critical hit be scored that is not maximized, not extra damage in general.

That's understandable, though I wish they had used different terms for each - even "extra damage" and "extra critical damage." I may not interpret it that way at home, but I certainly will use it that way at Encounters.

That certainly changes things. Fortunately, I only ruled against this on one roll - and while he would have killed the bad guy, the bad guy dropped two turns later before he had a chance to go again.

Thank you, folks.

- Ket

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Ask yourself the question "Did you roll it before you knew the result of the attack?"

If the answer is yes, it is maximized. It's that simple.

 

[Ryujin]

Ask yourself the question "Did you roll it before you knew the result of the attack?"

If the answer is yes, it is maximized. It's that simple.

No, not quite that simple, as you don't roll damage until you hit.

 

[Klaus]

The actual question is:

"If this were a normal hit, would you roll this damage (or, would this damage roll exist)?"

If "yes", then it is maximized on a crit.