Sneak Attack...Them Darn Halflings :)

[Jotun]

When you do a normal move and hide w/o penalties, that's a MEA. Is that correct?

When you use Bluff to create a diversion, and then hide, that's not a Standard Action either, it's a MEA. Is that a correct statement?

You roll for bluff, roll for hiding, and move all in the same round. No penalities either, assuming you do a 1/2 move.

Can I bluff, run, do a running jump, and then hide (taking the -20)? Sure does seem to be a lot of things in one round. If I wasn't hiding, I don't think I could bluff, run, and then jump.

I'm not trying to be a troll or being just plain ignorant. I want to play the game the right way using the rules in the book, not some stuff someone pulled out of their butt.

Last question. Where in the Player's Handbook can I read about how much cover and/or concealment is needed for there to be sufficient "stuff" to hide behind?

Thanks for all the help. I'm really enjoying the good posts in this thread.

 

[Thanee]

When you do a normal move and hide w/o penalties, that's a MEA. Is that correct?

A half-speed move, yes. It seems to be a MEA to move half your speed and hide at the same time.

When you use Bluff to create a diversion, and then hide, that's not a Standard Action either, it's a MEA. Is that a correct statement?

You roll for bluff, roll for hiding, and move all in the same round. No penalities either, assuming you do a 1/2 move.

About the bluff diversion, I would assume, that the bluff is a standard action and the hide is then a move-equivalent action, with a move of up to 1" per rank in hide, altho the usual penalties for movement would still apply, I suppose (i.e. half-speed no penalties, full speed -5).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jotun]

I wrote:

Last question. Where in the Player's Handbook can I read about how much cover and/or concealment is needed for there to be sufficient "stuff" to hide behind?

It's in Song and Silence. 50% concealment or any type of cover. I don't know why this information would be in a supplement book, seems pretty important to the use of the Hide skill. 10 pages on bardic instruments and maybe 1 page on clarification and examples of using the Hide skill. *yawn*

I have another question, what would be an appropriate Hide modifier for someone prone, laying down? -4 because it's a size category smaller? How about kneeling, -2? Or is kneeling understood to be included in the "hiding action"?

 

[Nish]

I have another question, what would be an appropriate Hide modifier for someone prone, laying down? -4 because it's a size category smaller? How about kneeling, -2? Or is kneeling understood to be included in the "hiding action"?

I believe positioning your body so as to be less visible is considered to be part of the Hide skill already...

 

[Abraxas]

Posted by waytoomuchcoffee

HiPS is clearly a supernatural ability (it says so right in the description). Page 126 PG: "Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability description).

Unfortunately - not all supernatural abilities are "defined otherwise" .

A couple examples;
DR for instance is a supernatural ability but its description makes no mention of it not requiring a standard action to use.
A monks movement rate from 9th level on is a supernatural ability - again not defined otherwise.

As CRGreathouse said - its debated, and you can find these debates elsewhere. They boil down to 2 general arguments.

On one side - HiPS is a Su ability and Su abilities require a standard action.

On the other - HiPS merely modifies the hide skill (making the impossible possible), since you can combine hiding with moving and attacking you can combine HiPS with moving and attacking.

Decide which works for your campaign and use it
(Just an aside - I've yet to have a problem with HiPS not using a standard action but that may just be the bunch I game with)

 

[Krakken]

Summary

It doesn't. HiPS aloows a character to hide while being observed. Some have suggested imposing the -20 check penalty to use of the HiPS ability - but that would be a house rule.

A few things:
(1) This -20 penalty to HIPS is stated in the EPIC book, thus 'not a house rule'
(2) Hiding isn't a move equivalent, it's a free action that effects other actions, such as 'hide while charging' at -20 penalty, hide while sniping -20 penalty, hide while moving normally -5 penalty, hide while moving at half speed 0 penalty
(3) Ettins DO NOT get TWO (2) spot, listen, search... They get a bonus as stated in monster manual (+2) because of their multiple heads.
(4) Some Supernatural Abilities are standard actions, some are not
(5) HIPS as the ShadowDancer's Supernatural ability doesn't impose a -20 penalty, because it's 'supernatural', but for someone that doesn't have this supernatural ability, it is a modification to their Hide skill with a -20 penalty... still not a standard action.

 

[Abraxas]

(posted by Krakken
1) This -20 penalty to HIPS is stated in the EPIC book, thus 'not a house rule'

Sorry, I was under the impression they were discussing the supernatural ability HiPS (my mistake ). Some have suggested a -20 penalty to the Su HiPS ability - which is a house rule.

BTW, on what page is the -20 penalty listed in the ELH - haven't had it long enough to read all of it and my current campaign is a long way from epic levels. Thanx

 

[waytoomuchcoffee]

Unfortunately - not all supernatural abilities are "defined otherwise" .

So? Then it is a standard action, as clearly stated by the rules.


A couple examples;
DR for instance is a supernatural ability but its description makes no mention of it not requiring a standard action to use.
A monks movement rate from 9th level on is a supernatural ability - again not defined otherwise.


Where does it say this? Monk and Barb DR is not a supernatural ability, at least. And monks move is supernatural, which means it takes a standard action. Seems pretty clear to me. Run 50 feet or slower, regular movement, 60 feet and faster, it takes a standard action.

On one side - HiPS is a Su ability and Su abilities require a standard action.

Which seems to be the correct one, as you can actually look at the exact wording. What is there to misinterpret here?

On the other - HiPS merely modifies the hide skill (making the impossible possible), since you can combine hiding with moving and attacking you can combine HiPS with moving and attacking.

Faulty logic. Just because Hide is not a standard action doesn't mean HiPS is. Just because HiPS has some similarities with Hide means everything has to be the same? It doesn't "merely" modify it, it turns it into a Su ability, which in turn has its own rules.

 

[Astlin]

Where does it say this? Monk and Barb DR is not a supernatural ability, at least. And monks move is supernatural, which means it takes a standard action. Seems pretty clear to me. Run 50 feet or slower, regular movement, 60 feet and faster, it takes a standard action.

1) The Barbarians is Extraordinary. The Monks is supernatural. See Pg73 DMG under Damage Reduction "some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to ..." Monks become 'magical creatures' (treated as Outsiders) at level 20.

2) Nope. At 9th+ the monks fast movement becomes supernatural, not when moving 60'+.

By the rules (using the strictest interpretation), this leads to a bizarre situation.

8th level I can move at 100' with boots of striding and springing.

9th level it takes a standard action just to move faster than 30' and the boots no longer double my movement (cutting my move down to 60').

Astlin

 

[Archer]

The FAQ says only the part above 50 is supernatural movement. The example is spd 70 w/o boots of striding and springing and 100 with.

DR is a passive ability and thus requires no action to use, triggered when conditions are met.

HiPs allowed as a free or move action can be much more easily abused as a permanent, non-penatratable invisibility rather then the ability to disappear while running down a narrow empty street. Shadow still has to be nearby so it doesn't work in an open meadow for a shadowdancer.