Sneak Attacks on Rays

[Ristamar]

Have I missed anything, or do any of you have any convincing arguments for me to either restrict or de-restrict these sneaky ray attacks?

Though kreynolds was a bit harsh (as usual ), I have to somewhat agree with him. There's absolutely nothing 'munchkin' about what your players are attempting, and I think you'll find it isn't even remotely gamebreaking in practice.

Just out of curiosity, what is so implausible about a sneak attack with a ray? Visually, it's not much different than sneak attacking with a ranged weapon. It seems your beef is with the mechanic, not the concept. As I mentioned above, try using it in your games before nerfing it, and I think you'll find that there's really nothing to worry about.

 

[Nvvyn]

I totally Agree with the above guy, ur being harsh on ur players, and you'll prolly lose em' soon if u snip their wings.

Again I say, Gaining the sneak attack ALREADY has disadvantages of losing caster levels. a 3 lvl mage, 3 lvl rogue, can cast 2 lvl spells, and do 2d6 dmg on sneak attack only. whereas a 6 lvl mage can cast 3rd level spells! and he is only 1 lvl away from 4th lvl spells at that point.

I also think ur very confused about rays. regardless of whether a ray hits armor or skin, it is going to have the same effect. Think of a ray as an incorporal being that passes through armor as if it wasn't there.

the PHB specifically states that any spell that requires a roll on attack can deal sneak attack dmg, this means touch attacks too! not just ranged touch attacks. Also, the ranged touch attack ignores ALL armor except dex and dodge, unless they are caught flat footed.

 

[Eccles]

I have to be able to visialise the rules before I'm happy with them.

My problem isn't with ranged attacks doing sneak attack damage. It's with the fact that, all of a sudden, the 1,500 gp of plate armour I bought to cover my privates is being rendered useless because some crummy mage just touched me on the knee.

I simply don't understand why the mage should be given the advantage of a touch attack that cripples the target with sneak damage. The sneak attack, by its very nature, takes advantage of the opponent's distraction to avoid their armour and slip a dagger in past it.

Why should a level 19 rogue, level 1 sorceror be able to cast a level 0 spell that does 1D3 plus 10D6 damage 6 times a day?

It's an accuracy thing. The main reason a touch attack is easy because it only has to touch any part of the anatomy. The reason a sneak attack is hard is because it has to hit specific parts of the target that are covered by armour.

I simply cannot justify, in my mind, an attack that gets all of the advantages of a sneak attack without actually having to bypass the armour.

OK, you might chill the armour. And I would happily let you pass on your 1D3 chill damage from your Ray of Frost. But why on earth would the Ray of Frost suddenly be doing the massive damage that sneak attacks can involve without a degree of finesse and skill?

 

[Eccles]

the PHB specifically states that any spell that requires a roll on attack can deal sneak attack dmg, this means touch attacks too! not just ranged touch attacks.

Which is another point. According to this rule, strictly interpreted, the Ray of Enfeeblement spell, which requires a touch attack, could cause Sneak Attack damage.

And I dearly hope someone tells me I'm wrong on that point, as otherwise it's just silly.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Re: Re: Re: Sneak Attacks on Rays

I'm not sure that any of you are understanding the reasoning behind my question here. A touch attack is something that requires no real skill or subtlety to it, whereas the sneak attack is totally the opposite, a blow to the nerves, jugular, kidneys or whatever.

You are missing a vital point here, I think.

Ray of Frost does cold damage, and so does the sneak attacks used with it.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Which is another point. According to this rule, strictly interpreted, the Ray of Enfeeblement spell, which requires a touch attack, could cause Sneak Attack damage.

No, since it does not deal damage, it gives an enhancement penalty, which is something entirely different.

 

[Ristamar]

A ray attack versus armor is akin to shooting someone wearing a batting helmet right in the skull with a handgun. The helmet is pretty much worthless, as the bullet will just ignore that little piece of protection.

Simple touch attacks are pretty much the same way, save for the fact that they're delivered by hand, not by ray. It's magic. Suspend your disbelief for a few seconds. Enjoy the possibilities.

 

[Nvvyn]

ok think of it like this. A 19th lvl rogue, 1st lvl wizard...
Obviously the rogue is going to be VERY versed in sneak attacks, and he will know the MOST critical and vital area's on the body in order to do an attack.
now, the rogue has two options, he can sneak attack with some powerful dagger i dunno, dagger +5 with some flame effect doing 1d4+5, +1d6, + snmeak attack fire dmg...
or he can ray of frost 1d3 _ sneak attack. That right there proves its not overpowered. Yeah he can cast his little 1d3 dmg spell 6 times.
or he can attaack with his dagger 1000 times a day doing his 1d6+5+1d6+sneak attack. hmmmmm.......

Now, for ur visualization....

19th rogue, 1st wizard....
he is sneaking through an alleyway, in the darkness. Comes upon the evil warrior (with fullplate) tailing him for years...
(not much thoguht into this, I know) at a distance of , oh lets say 20 feet, he zero's in on the location. He quickly studies the oponent looking for that vital area (which he has had 20 levels to determine vital area's). He notices a slight slot between the helmet and his plate armor. He begins casting his ray of frost, Using perfect aiming (many dex bonus's plus a large base attack bonus) he shoots forth his ray of destructing, connecting at the very back of his neck.. The freezing ray strikes the backbone sending a paralyzing chill up and down his spinal cord which archs into his brain freezing his insides and leaving him stunned with pain.

Theres ur sneak attack 1d3 +9d6 dmg.

 

[Eccles]

He quickly studies the oponent looking for that vital area (which he has had 20 levels to determine vital area's). He notices a slight slot between the helmet and his plate armor. He begins casting his ray of frost, Using perfect aiming (many dex bonus's plus a large base attack bonus) he shoots forth his ray of destructing, connecting at the very back of his neck.. The freezing ray strikes the backbone sending a paralyzing chill up and down his spinal cord which archs into his brain freezing his insides and leaving him stunned with pain.

Thank you.

What you've just described there is the targeting of the ray to miss the armour. Not go through it. Avoid it.

Which is exactly what I've been picturing. And exactly why I'm arguing they need a slightly higher attack roll to get the sneak attack.

The exact same attack roll they'd need to use a dagger, in fact.

 

[Rill]

So the issue is really one of visualization. That's not too troublesome.

First, remember that sneak attacks are possible because the target has increased vulnerability due to some event. (It is distracted by a flanking attacker, it is surprised and thus unaware of the pending attack, it cannot see the attacker to move its shield into place, it fell for a bluff that the rogue wasn't going to attack and turned its attention to another threat, etc.)

Second, sneak attack is the knowledge and skill to make the most of those moments for which the defender is vulnerable.

With a blade, they attempt to slide it into cracks in the armor to reach a vulnerable spot. Armor still counts against a blade, even when the target isn't looking, as it protects against physical objects contacting vital areas.

With a ray (or any touch attack), the character still attempts to target it at a more vulnerable spot (frozen knee vs. frozen heart) The thing about the touch is that it passes through physical armor, which is why it is easier to strike with in the first place. Sneak attack damage is just the added benefit of the caster being able to target the vulnerable area when the creature is unable to actively defend against the attack.

Anyway, just how I would begin visualizing the process. The caster isn't just targeting the edge of the shield, they know to hit the head/heart/etc.

-Rill