Sneak Attacks on Rays

[Artoomis]

Retracted.

AGGEMAM has it exactly right, no need to repeat it again.

 

[Ristamar]

From the FAQ:
A spell must require an attack roll and deal damage to score a critical hit. The ray of enfeeblement imposes a Strength penalty; it does not deal damage, so it cannot cause a critical hit.

Again... an Enhancement Penalty is not Ability Damage.

Sneak attacks work on a similar principle. An attack must deal damage in order for damage to be multiplied.

 

[smetzger]

Gone downhill a little bit.

By the rules you only need a touch attack to do sneak attack damage with ray of frost.

I understand your argument about needing a vulnerable spot to hit the target. However, touch attack spells ignore armor. The magical energy just passes right through the armor. That is the rule.

Explanation of the rule. Ok now touch attacks were instigated to address the shocking grasp problem of earlier editions. Hitting someone on Plate Mail should logically be easier with shocking grasp. So, they simplified things and made a whole classification of spells that completly ignores armor.

Several people have pointed you to the rules. You have only put forth a weak argument with no firm grounding in the actual rules. It has logic, but not from a rules perspective. This is the Rules forum, your going to get a very cold shoulder when you try to change rules. If you want to talk about the possible ramifications of your house rule then take it to the House Rule forum.

 

[drowdude]

I'm starting a new campaign, so naturally my players are busy coming up with new ways to be utter munchkins.

That really is an overly harsh statement dude.

The latest proposal is to have a rogue/mage using rays of frost to get ranged sneak attack damage.

No problem there... I have played a rogue-sorcerer based upon using rays to sneak attack as well...

So, by extrapolation... you be callin' me a muchkin too then eh? Them be fightin' words boyo

I've allowed this so far, with the following restrictions: -

1. You have to be within 30 feet, as usual.
2. The target must have no Dex bonus against your attack.
3. You have to beat the target's armour value to get the sneak attack damage (you can't get the extra damage for hitting the enemy's vitals if the ray smacks into their full-plate armour).
4. If you merely hit with the touch attack, you get the standard damage for the Ray.

1. + 2. = normal rules, as noted by others above... and now for my opinion on...

3. + 4. = Naaaah, this is overly restrictive.
Here is one way to think about it, in the case of Ray of Frost, the SA dice will be cold damage... all the rogue-mage needs to do is hit an area where the vitals are and the cold damage seeps through and inflicts it's damage to the vitals beneath... no real need to penetrate the armor.

Have I missed anything, or do any of you have any convincing arguments for me to either restrict or de-restrict these sneaky ray attacks?

You missed providing a compelling arguement as to *why* the sneak attacks should be restricted in the first place...

 

[Will]

I'll toss in my 2 coppers, toward the visualization issue.

Spells do ranged touch attacks because armor has no effect on them. The target may as well be naked. The ray of cold/acid arrow/whatever has the same effect.

Once you accept _that_, then sneak attack is just a matter of aiming for the throat/heart/kidneys rather than just hoping it hits something good.

Pretty simple. I'd say if you have a problem with sneak attack with a ranged touch attack as you describe, then you should have a problem with ranged touch attacks as a whole.

-=Will

 

[Nvvyn]

heres an example of why I am right, take for example the spell Enervation...

Enervation
You point your finger and utter the incantation, releasing a black bolt of crackling negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If the attack succeeds, the subject gains 1d4 negative levels.

Says the Subject GAINS negative 1d4 levels...... it says nothing about level damage, never says it does any form of damage at all....

NOW AN excerpt from the Tome and Blood......
" For example, a 10th level rogue who makes a succesful sneak attack with an enervation spell bestows 1d4 negative levels and deals 5d6 points of negative energy damage"


look it up.

 

[Artoomis]

heres an example of why I am right, take for example the spell Enervation...

Enervation
You point your finger and utter the incantation, releasing a black bolt of crackling negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If the attack succeeds, the subject gains 1d4 negative levels.

Says the Subject GAINS negative 1d4 levels...... it says nothing about level damage, never says it does any form of damage at all....

NOW AN excerpt from the Tome and Blood......
" For example, a 10th level rogue who makes a succesful sneak attack with an enervation spell bestows 1d4 negative levels and deals 5d6 points of negative energy damage"


look it up.

Isn't the rule something like: Any spell that uses touch attacks and does attriubute damage or grants negative levels...

Or something close to that?

If so, attribute damage is very different from an enhancement penalty.

 

[AGGEMAM]

heres an example of why I am right, take for example the spell Enervation...

LOL .. enervation .. LOL

Did you read any of the above posts, at all ? Or did you spend your time riffleling through your books in a feeble attemt to find something that surported your hypotesis.

For example this post from the good Ristamar:

From the FAQ:
A spell must require an attack roll and deal damage to score a critical hit. The ray of enfeeblement imposes a Strength penalty; it does not deal damage, so it cannot cause a critical hit.

Since you cannot crit with the ray of enfeeblement, you cannot sneak attack with it.

Or to put it simply:

NO CRIT -> NO SNEAK

EDIT: I was a little rude here, it was intentional, but do not take it personally, it was not meant that way.

 

[drowdude]

NOW AN excerpt from the Tome and Blood......
" For example, a 10th level rogue who makes a succesful sneak attack with an enervation spell bestows 1d4 negative levels and deals 5d6 points of negative energy damage"


look it up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah....


You left out this part... (you know, the pertinent part...)

"Spells that inflict energy drain or ability damage deal additional negative energy damage on a sneak attack,..."


An enhancement penalty really does NOT equal ability damage. No matter how much you want it too

 

[Nvvyn]

Ok, thanks for the clarification aggemam. I understand now.