Sneak attacks within an Obscuring Mist

[the Jester]

I think this would work as long as the 'target' character is not already in combat (or the rogue won the initiative and caught him flat-footed). Otherwise, he's not flat-footed.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Isn't the fact that you have total concealment prior to the attack MAKE the target be flat footed when you attack him (just as when it happens in the first rounds of combat)?

No, because flat-footed is a specific condition... you haven't yet acted in a melee round.

If you have total concealment from someone or invisibility from someone then they are denied their Dex bonus against you (exceptions excluded) and you can sneak attack them.

Per the rules I think there are only two ways you can attack someone from within their square:

1) you are grappling them

2) you are three(?) sizes smaller than them (or larger than them)

In the first instance you couldn't get your sneak attack since you are in the grapple. In the second instance you could potentially get a sneak attack... except that in the OM example you've lost any concealment by this point and can't be hidden etc. etc.

Cheers

 

[Jarrod]

That brings up a related question of mine...

You must have concealment or cover to hide. That is, you must have concealment or cover to use the Hide action.

But where does it say you need to have concealment or cover to remain hidden? Circumstance bonus to Spot, sure... but I can easily believe a master thief can sneak across an open roof with nobody seeing him. If someone has their eyes on you you need C/C to throw it off, but I don't think you need C/C to remain hidden.

 

[Nail]

Right.

At least part of this puzzle is this: unless it's the start of combat, the enemy isn't flat-footed.

At any rate, I understand what you're trying to do: Come up with a way to sneak attack while in Obscuring Mist. The short version: You can't. The longer version: you really, really, really can't.

Your enemy can't have concealment when you sneak attack. You can't share the enemy's space when sneak attacking (given the situation clarified above).

.....OTOH, how about this:

#0) Surprise round: grapple the enemy.
#1) Round 1: win initiative, enemy denied Dex bonus, sneak attack with a light weapon. If you have multiple attacks (2-weapon style, high BAB), do it again.

or how about this:

#1) Polymorph into a size Tiny creature.

#2) Surprise enemy, start of combat. Move into his space. Sneak attack him.

#3) Round 1: Win initiative. Sneak attack once, then move away into Obscuring Mist. As he's flat-footed, he doesn't get any AoOs (barring a feat, anyway).



Any other ways?

 

[Aaron2]

But where does it say you need to have concealment or cover to remain hidden? Circumstance bonus to Spot, sure... but I can easily believe a master thief can sneak across an open roof with nobody seeing him. If someone has their eyes on you you need C/C to throw it off, but I don't think you need C/C to remain hidden.

One important thing to consider is that the RAW don't give any advantage to being Hidden. For example, if I step behind a sufficently large tree, I get total cover and can Hide automatically. But, the enemy still knows were I am. Its the same with hiding in a Blurr. If the enemy can see your Blurr, what have you gained? Its up to the DM to decide if the current situation satisfies the "If you can’t react to a blow" clause to warrent any attack denying a Dex bonus.

That being said, I wouldn't let a thief "Hide" in the open in broad daylight. I would, however, allow him to use a Bluff check to move from cover to cover unnoticed.


Aaron

 

[Gaiden]

Ok, I really blew it. I was completely unclear. My apologies.

No you didn't.

Your original post makes perfect sense. I think others might be locked into a rules perspective of the game and not thinking outside the box so to speak.

Your situation makes perfect sense to me and according to OM, should be allowable. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that because OM gives total concealment at 10' you can sneak up to within 10' of a target than make a hide check to approach within 5'. Again this is all allowable by the rules. Nail is right that just because you have total concealment does not mean that you are completely silent and for your tactic, you would need to be silent as well.

So presuming you make your MS checks up until the point at which you are making your attack, let's continue. You move from 10' to 5' (so that you are effectively next to your target) and now have 50% concealment. You can hide and assuming that works are now in a position to make a sneak attack, but for the concealment of the opponent. So what you are trying to do is move into the opponent's square since OM clearly states that at 5' opponents have 50% concealment but doesn't say anything about concealment within someone's square (and Orichin, the way OM works is that in the squares adjacent to you everything has 50% concealment, not the squares 5' away from the squares adjacent to you). By not stating about concealment in your own square, I presume, sfedi, that you are assuming there is no concealment, and as a DM, I think that a fair assessment.

So we have gotten to the point where you are going to enter the opponent's square to make a sneak attack. How do you move in. As you suggest moving in provokes an AoO. Since AoO happen before the action you are right that the AoO would not apply because you have concealment. However, in this situation I might rule otherwise (it seems to be sort of gaming the system otherwise).

So what's next? I would rule this as a grapple even though you are not technically grapplying. So I would force you to make a touch attack to initiate the grapple and then have you roll an attack at -4 vs. their AC. Because you are attacking with surprise (if they failed all of their checks they don't become aware of you until you initiate the grapple and don't gain their dex bonus until their action).

I would rule it this way because it is the simplest within the scheme of the rules. It right now is the only mechanic to enter someone's square and attack them. The description that you are more using an aikido style of fighting vs. wrestling is more descriptive flavor to me than anything. In other words, if you abstract the name of the mechanics and just look at the mechanics themselves, grappling could be actively holding the opponent or just attacking in very tight spaces. The original touch attack could be considered more a positioning of your body rather than actually grabbing hold of them. If it suits you, just call grappling something else but use the same mechanics. After all, what is a touch attack - your attack vs. their base AC modified only by reflexive and magical benefits (apart from armor enhancements). Descriptively, it makes perfect sense to me to consider that just a positioning of yourself since the touch attack is only to get the next attack.

So following this mechanic, you would roll a touch attack to enter their square which is almost guaranteed since they are denied their dex bonus (although you might have more trouble against a monk). The catch is, that I would rule the opponent got concealment with this attack. The way I understand it is that the touch attack is made while entering the opponent's square. This tactic could quickly get out of hand without some catch. I think enforcing the concealment to this attack would be an adequate balance. Then you would move into their square and make your attack. The attack is at -4 but they are flatfooted so that penalty may be aleviated somewhat. Also, if you were interested in this technique, I would be very keen on allowing a feat that you might call close quarters "tactics" that acted as improved grapple but instead of giving you a +4 to grapple checks, negated the -4 to attacking with a light weapon while grappling (as opposed to making grapple checks). I am not sure if I would required improved grapple as a prereq (probably not).

So in summary, you succeed on MS checks and Hide checks to the point where you initiate a grapple. Because the opponent is unaware of you I would forgo any sort of AoO and just let you make a touch attack vs. the opponent's flat footed AC. Succeeding on that I would let you make an attack with a light weapon vs. their flatfooted AC granting SA dmg with success. This may deviate slightly from the grapple rules because I think upon initially starting a grapple you can only make an opposed grapple check. If you wanted to be strict about it, you would count the grapple initiation as a suprise round and just roll opposed grapple checks to get into the grapple. Then you'd both roll initiative. Assuming you won now you could make a full attack, all attacks being SA's but all with a -4 penalty. I think I would probably allow you to just make the straight attack instead of the grapple because you are accomplishing less than what the grapple was intended. A grapple is designed to let force your opponent to be grappling (making him no longer threaten any spaces around him and forcing him to lose his dex against non-grapplers) while also giving you a chance to do dmg at no penalty (just vs. an opposed role instead of their AC). In this case, you just want to make an attack, and I'd be penalizing that attack at -4 and making you roll an extra attack that while unlikely of missing could always result in a 1.

The benefit for you, if you ruled my way is that after you make your attack, because you did not make a grapple check you would be forced back into the square you came from meaning that you don't have to worry about being grappled yourself and you now have concealment.

From a balance perspective, the only benefit to performing this type of tactic is that you would get SA. Compared to just a straight up attack, you still suffer a miss chance (albeit indirectly with my method), you have to make two attack rolls and the attack vs. their AC is at -4.

With Spring Attack this could be a very deadly combination indeed.

With all of this, though, there is just one problem: how do you find your opponent? Concealment works both ways. Unless your opponent is being loud (like shouting or in melee), you would need to roll a listen check vs a flat DC of one person breathing (if he is not moving) with distance modifying the check. Assuming you have a way to find the opponent though I would say it is perfectly legit.

 

[MerakSpielman]

By not stating about concealment in your own square, I presume, sfedi, that you are assuming there is no concealment, and as a DM, I think that a fair assessment.

I disagree. I see no reason to presume this.

 

[IcyCool]

Also, if you were interested in this technique, I would be very keen on allowing a feat that you might call close quarters "tactics" that acted as improved grapple but instead of giving you a +4 to grapple checks, negated the -4 to attacking with a light weapon while grappling (as opposed to making grapple checks). I am not sure if I would required improved grapple as a prereq (probably not).

Look up the Knife Fighter feat in the Player's Guide to Faerun. I think that covers what you're talking about.

 

[Aaron2]

Since AoO happen before the action you are right that the AoO would not apply because you have concealment.

You need total concealment to avoid AoOs. Normal concealment won't cut it.

The attack is at -4 but they are flatfooted so that penalty may be aleviated somewhat.

Ok. I'm not following. If your target is flat-footed, why bother with the OM at all? Just walk up and sneak attack him.


Aaron

 

[Nail]

[sfedi]Your original post makes perfect sense.

Errr???

Perhaps what you mean is: "Now that you've added some details, your question makes perfect sense."

..... and according to OM, should be allowable.

That is to say: "OM allows you to hide in the square next to an opponent. If combat has not begun, and that opponent is flat-footed, you might be able to step into the opponent's square (via grapple or size Tiny) and sneak attack him."

That's what you mean, right?

....You move from 10' to 5' (so that you are effectively next to your target) and now have 50% concealment.

Not quite.

You have concealment (a mechanical term within the game rules). This means that attackers have a 20% miss chance. If you have Total Concealment (another rules term), that miss chance rises to 50%.

IOW, there is no such thing as "50% concealment".

.... [OM] doesn't say anything about concealment within someone's square.....By not stating about concealment in your own square, I presume, sfedi, that you are assuming there is no concealment, and as a DM, I think that a fair assessment.

Here's the real point of contention (if there is any arguement at all to be had in this thread). Is there any RAW that says, one way or another?

IMO, you gain no concealment from those sharing your space (in your square or squares).

....So we have gotten to the point where you are going to enter the opponent's square to make a sneak attack. How do you move in. As you suggest moving in provokes an AoO. Since AoO happen before the action you are right that the AoO would not apply because you have concealment.

Not true. You do gain AoOs versus those with Concealment. You might be thinking of Total Concealment.

Moreover, since the only way this entire scenario would work is if the opponent was flat-footed....they won't get AoOs.

...unless they have the feat Combat Reflexes!.....

....I would rule this as a grapple even though you are not technically grapplying.

In fact, grappling is the only way such a thing could happen....there is not another alternative (barring size differences)

Moving through a Square

Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

....So I would force you to make a touch attack to initiate the grapple and then have you roll an attack at -4 vs. their AC. Because you are attacking with surprise (if they failed all of their checks they don't become aware of you until you initiate the grapple and don't gain their dex bonus until their action).

Wha??????? yer mixing-and-matching some stuff there, bub.

"Becoming aware of you" has nothing (nada, zip, zero, zilch) to do with it.

The only way to sneak attack while within a grapple is if the enemy is flat-footed (at the beginning of combat). The opponent you grapple, even though he rolled an opposed grapple check, is still flat-footed....until his regular turn comes up.

After the flat-footed thing is over, there's no way to sneak attack within a grapple.

Here's the text:

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.

....The catch is, that I would rule the opponent got concealment with this attack.

That is to say: "Before you can enter his space, you must initiate a grapple. In order to initiate a grapple, you must make a melee touch attack from your original square -- hence, the miss chance from concealment."

Clear enough.