D&D 5E Sniper Rogue?

[ECMO3]

Now, I will start out by saying that the Assassin and the Inquisitive both do a good job of helping you be a sniper, but neither feels like a character specialized in that strategy, to me.

Which makes me wonder, what would? The assassin crits more and has advantage when getting the drop, which is easy to do with hundreds of feet of range and exceptional stealth, but the rest of the subclass is about social infiltration, more or less.

The Inquisitive lets you reliably sneak attack regardless of circumstance, allowing you more freedom in your tactics from round to round, once you've set that up, but it's actually a fairly small boon most of the time.

The Scout....exists, I guess. You can get away from people a bit easier, after they've whomped on you, if you didn't use your reaction to mitigate damage with uncanny dodge.

So, I don't think that rogues need much damage boost, but a sniper isn't dual wielding, and will probably never get reaction attacks, so I do think that a mild damage increase is possible, here.

Also, in terms of the story of a subclass, I see two possibilities. First, the rogue's alternative to the fighter's Gunslinger. Proficiency with guns, reload as a bonus action, etc. The second is the Deepwood Sniper concept. Basically an alternate Scout, gets proficiency but not automatic expertise in Survival and Nature, then sniper stuff and maybe some climbing related stuff, ability to ignore partial cover.

The gunfighter would be less focused on long range, and have some features that speak to fast draw type stuff, while the Deepwood sniper would be more about stealth and long range.

Here are some quick thoughts for mechanics that could work. The subclass wouldn't get all of these, they're just a list of ideas.

• Pick Your Target - the sniper gets to choose a target and focus on them, similar to the inquisitive.
• Shot on The Run - you can use Steady Aim even if you move. Later, you can move full speed without a stealth penalty.
• Use The Terrain - you can attempt to hide while only lightly obscured by features of the terrain that would be difficult terrain.
• Lethal Aim - When you hit with advantage on a ranged weapon attack, you gain one or more of;
  • Reroll 1s and 2s on the damage dice
  • reduce the target to 0hp if the damage would reduce them to a number of HP equal to your Rogue Level + your dex or lower
  • Your Sneak Attack damage dice become d8s instead of d6s
• You can make a ranged weapon attack as as a reaction as if you'd taken the readied action if;
  • A creature you have studied (or marked for death or whatever) moves more than 10ft or draws a weapon or spellcasting focus item while within the short range of a ranged weapon you are weilding
  • A creature makes a ranged attack against you or an ally of yours within 30ft of you
  • A hidden or invisible creature comes out of hiding or becomes visible due to casting a spell or making an attack
• You crit on a 19 or 20, either against targets you've marked, or with specific weapons, or when you make an attack that qualifies for sneak attack?
• A slightly more "tinker" aspect could be gained by being able to build specialised ranged weapons with greater range, repeating mechanisms, etc.
• A pool of trick shot dice, or an at-will version that packs less punch (no extra damage). Maybe reduce SA damage for secondary effects, but I've never seen any version of that be satisfying.

Any other ideas? Know of any 3pp rogue subclasses that already do this?

Arcane Trickster subclass with the Fey touched feat and Hex does a really good job of this already. Take minor illusion to create your own hiding places to snipe from.

With Tasha's stead aim sniper Rogues can get advantage (and sneak attack) really often. Sometimes enemies will get smart and move behind cover, but otherwise you can snipe them at will with SA. Steady aim certainly tilted the game more towards the snipers, so I don't think they need more.

As far as what is above: I think shoot on the run, use the terrain, lethal aim and the ranged AOO are way OP as subclass features IMO. I think trick-shot dice should be more of a fighter thing, not appropriate in a Rogue IMO unless taken as a feat, similarly tinker sounds more like an artificer.

The one that is ok is you crit on a 19 or 20, although I think that should be the 9th level ability. How about this as a framework:

Expertise in stealth and proficiency in heavy crossbow and longbow at 3rd level. Ignores loading with crossbows.
Crit on a 19 or 20 when using a Bow or Crossbow at 9th level
Ambush master at 13th level (equivalent to the scout subclass.)
Sudden Strike at 17th level (equivalent to the scout subclass) but only when using a bow or crossbow.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I've actually already created a homebrew Rogue subclass called the Sniper (I also did an Archer Fighter subclass to go with the same general theme).

At level 3, I gave them proficiency with all martial weapons that are ranged (including firearms), as well as giving them a feature that grants them critical hits on a roll of a natural 19-20 with Ranged Weapon Attacks. Finally, they get a minor benefit that grants them advantage on attack rolls against creatures that are incapable of moving (such as through being grappled).

At level 9, when a sniper is hiding, they count as Invisible until they make an attack roll or cast a spell.

At level 13, they can make opportunity attacks using ranged weapons when someone moves within 10 feet of them.

Finally, at level 17, when a Sniper attacks with a ranged weapon and they attack at advantage, they can choose to make two attacks with the ranged weapon instead of rolling one attack at advantage. Then, as long as the attack(s) would normally trigger Sneak Attack (through an enemy of the target being within 5 feet of the creature, an additional effect that grants advantage to hit, or similar trigger), Sneak Attack can be applied to any of the two attacks that hit.

Any thoughts?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I've actually already created a homebrew Rogue subclass called the Sniper (I also did an Archer Fighter subclass to go with the same general theme).

At level 3, I gave them proficiency with all martial weapons that are ranged (including firearms), as well as giving them a feature that grants them critical hits on a roll of a natural 19-20 with Ranged Weapon Attacks. Finally, they get a minor benefit that grants them advantage on attack rolls against creatures that are incapable of moving (such as through being grappled).

At level 9, when a sniper is hiding, they count as Invisible until they make an attack roll or cast a spell.

At level 13, they can make opportunity attacks using ranged weapons when someone moves within 10 feet of them.

Finally, at level 17, when a Sniper attacks with a ranged weapon and they attack at advantage, they can choose to make two attacks with the ranged weapon instead of rolling one attack at advantage. Then, as long as the attack(s) would normally trigger Sneak Attack (through an enemy of the target being within 5 feet of the creature, an additional effect that grants advantage to hit, or similar trigger), Sneak Attack can be applied to any of the two attacks that hit.

Any thoughts?

I like that a lot. The level 13 ability is a good way to make reaction attacks happen, though I think it's still too limited compared to what melee rogues can do with a feat or two. Perhaps a sniper feat that competes with the other ranged feats or a variant of sharpshooter.

Anyway, ranged attacks aren't so powerful that ranged rogues should just basically never get opportunities for ranged reaction attacks while melee rogues can get them pretty often.

Arcane Trickster subclass with the Fey touched feat and Hex does a really good job of this already. Take minor illusion to create your own hiding places to snipe from.

I don't know why I always hit this wall here, but nowhere else I talk about games. The salient point is niether "how powerful can we make a ranged rogue" nor is it "does the game have a build that accomplishes most of the goals, more or less, that we can kludge into mostly working?"

The point is to explore the idea of a Sniper rogue, and/or a tinker/gunfighter rogue.

With Tasha's stead aim sniper Rogues can get advantage (and sneak attack) really often. Sometimes enemies will get smart and move behind cover, but otherwise you can snipe them at will with SA. Steady aim certainly tilted the game more towards the snipers, so I don't think they need more.

Steady aim helps them have advantage a little more often, while still costing the same action economy that they'd otherwise use to get advantage. It's not some huge boon.

As far as what is above: I think shoot on the run, use the terrain, lethal aim and the ranged AOO are way OP as subclass features IMO.

I'm...flummoxed by this. Shot On The Run is a fairly small boon. I wouldn't even let it be the only level 3 benefit. Use The Terrain is, at best, equal to the wood elf's ability to try to hide in natural terrain. Lethal Aim, you may have missed the "one or more" thing? The suggestion isn't to give them all of that.

I think trick-shot dice should be more of a fighter thing, not appropriate in a Rogue IMO unless taken as a feat, similarly tinker sounds more like an artificer.

I don't consider "an existing class has a thematically similar thing already" to be a compelling basis for criticism of an idea. Not every concept that has dice you spend to do a cool thing needs to be fighter, and not every inventor or builder needs to be an artificer (or magical at all).

The one that is ok is you crit on a 19 or 20, although I think that should be the 9th level ability. How about this as a framework:

Expertise in stealth and proficiency in heavy crossbow and longbow at 3rd level. Ignores loading with crossbows.
Crit on a 19 or 20 when using a Bow or Crossbow at 9th level
Ambush master at 13th level (equivalent to the scout subclass.)
Sudden Strike at 17th level (equivalent to the scout subclass) but only when using a bow or crossbow.

I think we see balance very differently. That level 3 is...much less than most rogue subclasses get. The idea of giving them the same level 17 as the scout but more limited is just....no, thanks.

I do think those can be built on, but I think you and I are just on too different tracks in terms of how we see the power level of rogues, and what kind of stuff should be in the game.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I wanted to circle back around to these ideas.

I love the idea of a gunner rogue. The deepwood idea I don’t think it’s conceptually different enough from the scout for my taste. What about if the Gunner got a choice of fighting styles at 3rd level though? Sniper to ignore long range penalty with muskets (or two-handed firearms if you want to make it compatible with modern and scifi firearms and/or homebrew firearms) and dragoon to ignore melee range penalty and loading property with pistols (or one-handed firearms)?

I like the idea of splitting things up within the gunner (don't love that name, but Gunslinger is taken) with two fighting styles, but I'd probably broaden it out to ranged weapon attacks in general, but make sure that it's really nice for crossbow and gun users.

I've actually already created a homebrew Rogue subclass called the Sniper (I also did an Archer Fighter subclass to go with the same general theme).

At level 3, I gave them proficiency with all martial weapons that are ranged (including firearms), as well as giving them a feature that grants them critical hits on a roll of a natural 19-20 with Ranged Weapon Attacks. Finally, they get a minor benefit that grants them advantage on attack rolls against creatures that are incapable of moving (such as through being grappled).

At level 9, when a sniper is hiding, they count as Invisible until they make an attack roll or cast a spell.

At level 13, they can make opportunity attacks using ranged weapons when someone moves within 10 feet of them.

Finally, at level 17, when a Sniper attacks with a ranged weapon and they attack at advantage, they can choose to make two attacks with the ranged weapon instead of rolling one attack at advantage. Then, as long as the attack(s) would normally trigger Sneak Attack (through an enemy of the target being within 5 feet of the creature, an additional effect that grants advantage to hit, or similar trigger), Sneak Attack can be applied to any of the two attacks that hit.

Any thoughts?

What if at level 17 they can make a ranged weapon attack as part of the same reaction they use for Uncanny Dodge, or any other reaction they take that does not already involve an attack?

Either that, or perhaps a really strong focus effect. Remember that Thief gets a whole extra turn every round, so 17 can be biiiig if there is a good thematic fit. I feel like something comparable to the Assassin is in order here. Something that spikes damage out of the park. Maybe lose the need to not move when using Steady Aim at 9 or 13, and at 17 you can make an additional attack as part of the attack action any time you kill or crit a target, and the second attack can deal sneak attack damage even if you already have that turn?

The Dragoon and Sniper could still be two subclasses, though, as well. Or make like some other subclasses and have essentially two (or three) paths within the subclass. Dragoon, Sniper, and Pistolier.

A way to have trick shots without having special dice might be to basically do like Open Hand Monk, and say that when you focus on a target, you can do one of these 3 things when you hit with a ranged weapon attack once per turn. Each [Deadeye?] specialization adds a passive benefit at 3, and you can do the 3 trick shots. That plus proficiency with all ranged weapons should fill out level 3 about equal to Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler.

Level 3, You gain proficiency with all ranged weapons, including firearms if they are allowed in the campaign. You ignore the loading property of any ranged weapon you use, and if a weapon has a Reload property, as in the DMG, you can reload that weapon as a bonus action.

When you hit with a ranged weapon attack and deal Sneak Attack damage, you can also apply one of the following effects. [DC calculation text]

• The target must make a strength saving throw against you Deadeye DC or drop an item they are carrying.
• The target must make a desterity saving throw or their speed is halved. They can save against the effect again on their turn. If they succeed, the effect ends.
• If the attack was made with advantage, you reroll any 1s on the damage dice.

Specializations: (these are too powerful right now. I'd rather narrow them down than build on weak features)

• Dragoon - Your movement or that of a mount you are riding increases by 5ft, and you or your mount can ignore difficult terrain by making an Acrobatics check. You ignore a number of feet of difficult terrain equal to the result of the check.
• Sniper - You can take the Steady Aim action even if you move on your turn. If you take it and do not move, or take it and attack while prone, your attack ignores the long range of your weapon.
• Pistolier - You can reload a onehanded ranged weapon without having a free hand, regardless of whether it has the loading or reload properties. Your ranged weapon attacks do not suffer disadvantage when a hostile creature is within 5ft of you.
  

Level 9 should be something less combat related, 13 can be crit on a 19, and then 17 is extra damage when you crit?

Maybe it should be a couple subclasses after all. I really like the idea of the pistolier being a showoff and having like performance and deception, and being able to feint, attack as a reaction when initiative is rolled or they fail a deception check, and have the reload without a free hand and reload weapons with the reload property some firearms have in the DMG as an object interaction. That doesn't fit the Dragoon or the Sniper, though.

 

[Charlaquin]

I wanted to circle back around to these ideas.

I like the idea of splitting things up within the gunner (don't love that name, but Gunslinger is taken) with two fighting styles, but I'd probably broaden it out to ranged weapon attacks in general, but make sure that it's really nice for crossbow and gun users.

If you’re going to broaden it out to ranged weapons in general, I’d suggest the name Marksman.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If you’re going to broaden it out to ranged weapons in general, I’d suggest the name Marksman.

I am reluctant to use names that are inherently gendered, and Deadeye is just as good IMO.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Technically, Pistolier is french for expert marksman, as well.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'll have to give it more thought. I already want to make a rogue subclass that's an inventor, and tbh I think the gunslinger from Critical Role thematically fits the rogue better than the fighter anyway. Especially since the Battlemaster is a better gunslinger than the gunslinger.

The scoundrel-esque Pistolier or Pistolaro, the tinkering Gunsmith, the fast and optionally mounted Dragoon, and the "how i would have done the Scout because IMO the Scout is kinda terrible" Deepwood Sniper, all have enough thematic depth to make a subclass. The real question is, do I want to make them rogues, or stick with my earlier Archer class?

 

[Charlaquin]

I am reluctant to use names that are inherently gendered, and Deadeye is just as good IMO.

Understandable.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'll have to give it more thought. I already want to make a rogue subclass that's an inventor, and tbh I think the gunslinger from Critical Role thematically fits the rogue better than the fighter anyway. Especially since the Battlemaster is a better gunslinger than the gunslinger.

The scoundrel-esque Pistolier or Pistolaro, the tinkering Gunsmith, the fast and optionally mounted Dragoon, and the "how i would have done the Scout because IMO the Scout is kinda terrible" Deepwood Sniper, all have enough thematic depth to make a subclass. The real question is, do I want to make them rogues, or stick with my earlier Archer class?

I think if you’re going to be making several subclasses all themed around use of ranged weapons, they might be better off as part of a custom class that maybe shares some rogue DNA than to try to make them all fit under the rogue class.