Sniping
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
If you're going to add a ton of worthwhile martial practises, then I guess that's an ok way to do things. If you don't add more to the fairly woeful selection, it's still going to feel like you've spend a feat PLUS cash for a benefit that's more-or-less at the DMs whim.
How about a skill power? An encounter perception skill power to bump the range of your next ranged power to 10 x normal.
That way you can even get good snipes out of spells and the like.
You could even do something interesting like make it an encounter power that lets you line up such a shot at will as a standard action, but the power fades if you move from your current square. So you can snipe all you want once you get set up, but once you're forced to move you'll have to switch to close range stuff.
The only problem with that is that typically ONE person gets to snipe while everyone who chose not to take the skill power gets to sit and watch.
So... how about a formalized skill challenge? Each round you can either take a shot (any ranged power, set some minimum range based on how much space there actually is) or contribute to making sure your foes don't pin down the sniper. Stealth, bluff, knowledges, athletics, acrobatics all come into play. There's no fixed number of successes, you just start with, say, 3 tokens per person. Decide ahead of time whether you're trying something hard or something easy. A hard success can either take 2 tokens away on a fail or add 2 on a success. An easy one is lose/gain one. An attack automatically loses 1 token. Once you're out of tokens, enemies are placed on the battlemap.
How about a skill power? An encounter perception skill power to bump the range of your next ranged power to 10 x normal.
That way you can even get good snipes out of spells and the like.
You could even do something interesting like make it an encounter power that lets you line up such a shot at will as a standard action, but the power fades if you move from your current square. So you can snipe all you want once you get set up, but once you're forced to move you'll have to switch to close range stuff.
The only problem with that is that typically ONE person gets to snipe while everyone who chose not to take the skill power gets to sit and watch.
So... how about a formalized skill challenge? Each round you can either take a shot (any ranged power, set some minimum range based on how much space there actually is) or contribute to making sure your foes don't pin down the sniper. Stealth, bluff, knowledges, athletics, acrobatics all come into play. There's no fixed number of successes, you just start with, say, 3 tokens per person. Decide ahead of time whether you're trying something hard or something easy. A hard success can either take 2 tokens away on a fail or add 2 on a success. An easy one is lose/gain one. An attack automatically loses 1 token. Once you're out of tokens, enemies are placed on the battlemap.
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RangerWickett
Legend
Ooh, ignore what I just posted. I have a better idea.
Alternately, there's the 3e method.
Extreme Range
The listed ranges for projectile and thrown weapons are based on their effectiveness in combat against mobile targets. While it's possible to hit a mass of men, or a stationary target at much farther distances, any aware combatant will easily be able to avoid a projectile from that range.
Bullets, however, travel fast enough to hit moving targets even at such great distances. Such shots take longer to aim, but a prepared sniper with a firearm can be a daunting threat.
Any character can choose the following skill power if they are trained in Perception.
Take Aim
At-Will * Martial
Standard Action
Prerequisite: You must be armed with a firearm.
Effect: Choose a space 3 squares by 3 squares. All the squares of that space must be no farther away than 10 times your weapon's close range. Until the end of your next turn, you can attack targets in that space as if they were within range of your firearm. You take a -4 penalty to the attack roll (this is instead of the normal -2 penalty at 'long range'). You lose this benefit if you move.
For example, a rifle has a close range of 20 squares. Josiah and his allies are advancing on a tower, and they get shot at by a sniper, who is firing from one of two arrow slits in the tower. After firing, the sniper hid, and Josiah isn't sure which slit he'll fire from next.
On his turn Josiah takes aim. On the sniper's turn, the sniper moves to one of the windows and takes aim. On Josiah's next turn, he fires at the sniper. If the sniper had moved to a different vantage point far enough away, Josiah would not have been able to snipe at him.
Eh, probably too complex. Still pondering the best way to do this.
Extreme Range
The listed ranges for projectile and thrown weapons are based on their effectiveness in combat against mobile targets. While it's possible to hit a mass of men, or a stationary target at much farther distances, any aware combatant will easily be able to avoid a projectile from that range.
Bullets, however, travel fast enough to hit moving targets even at such great distances. Such shots take longer to aim, but a prepared sniper with a firearm can be a daunting threat.
Any character can choose the following skill power if they are trained in Perception.
Take Aim
At-Will * Martial
Standard Action
Prerequisite: You must be armed with a firearm.
Effect: Choose a space 3 squares by 3 squares. All the squares of that space must be no farther away than 10 times your weapon's close range. Until the end of your next turn, you can attack targets in that space as if they were within range of your firearm. You take a -4 penalty to the attack roll (this is instead of the normal -2 penalty at 'long range'). You lose this benefit if you move.
For example, a rifle has a close range of 20 squares. Josiah and his allies are advancing on a tower, and they get shot at by a sniper, who is firing from one of two arrow slits in the tower. After firing, the sniper hid, and Josiah isn't sure which slit he'll fire from next.
On his turn Josiah takes aim. On the sniper's turn, the sniper moves to one of the windows and takes aim. On Josiah's next turn, he fires at the sniper. If the sniper had moved to a different vantage point far enough away, Josiah would not have been able to snipe at him.
Eh, probably too complex. Still pondering the best way to do this.
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RangerWickett
Legend
Take Aim
Perception Skill Power Utility 2
At-Will * Martial
Standard Action
Prerequisite: You must be armed with a firearm.
Effect: Choose a creature you are aware of. Until the end of your next turn, you can attack that target with ranged weapon powers as long as it is no farther away than 10 times your weapon's close range. You take a -4 penalty to the attack roll (this is instead of the normal -2 penalty at 'long range'). You lose this benefit if you move.
This ability does not let you use area burst weapon powers. If you use a power that normally lets you attack multiple targets, this benefit only applies to the one target you chose.
Perception Skill Power Utility 2
At-Will * Martial
Standard Action
Prerequisite: You must be armed with a firearm.
Effect: Choose a creature you are aware of. Until the end of your next turn, you can attack that target with ranged weapon powers as long as it is no farther away than 10 times your weapon's close range. You take a -4 penalty to the attack roll (this is instead of the normal -2 penalty at 'long range'). You lose this benefit if you move.
This ability does not let you use area burst weapon powers. If you use a power that normally lets you attack multiple targets, this benefit only applies to the one target you chose.
Just wanted to post another approach to this. Skill challenge. This gives you a loose handle for a sniper.
Scenario: Your team has taken position in a log cabin. You are protecting a witness, and just got intel that hostiles have discovered your location, and are approaching rapidly. Air lift is 10 minutes away. Radio out.
Your sniper takes the roof top, attaches his scope, and begins to scan the perimeter. Hostiles are advancing cover to cover. So you enter a skill challenge. Two of your allies secure the witness and put up barricades, one companion with binoculars assists with spotting and watches your back.
You start making perception checks to spot the enemy, you or your spotter can make insight or history to decipher their tactics. The enemy might be using smoke grenades for cover. After a successful perception, you make a ranged basic attack, range is nebulous and irrelevant. You can accumulate damage to see if it's enough to take a creature down before X number of rounds go by and the enemy is at the door. Meanwhile some athletics checks are made for barricades. Maybe some allies set a booby trap near the entry way with a thievery/arcana check, which all contribute to the success/failure of the skill challenge (have to keep everyone busy, not just the sniper).
Depending on the success/failure of the skill challenge, the final encounter when the enemy busts in the door will essentially be a level lower or a level higher. Using minions, you could do a more graduated success level. Did the sniper take 4 shots? there are 3 minions instead of 6, and maybe another enemy took it to the kevlar, so he starts the encounter down some hit points.
You don't really need a combat mechanic to make attacks at long range. That feels too ripe for exploitation. When you tie it to a skill challenge, the sniper is still going to be doing their job, reducing enemy numbers, taking down some red shirts, without the complexities of a new mechanic.
And depending on how well you like the encounter you run, you can always modify things for the next skill challenge, to improve the overall experience, and you haven't tied yourself to a single mechanic you might regret later.
Scenario: Your team has taken position in a log cabin. You are protecting a witness, and just got intel that hostiles have discovered your location, and are approaching rapidly. Air lift is 10 minutes away. Radio out.
Your sniper takes the roof top, attaches his scope, and begins to scan the perimeter. Hostiles are advancing cover to cover. So you enter a skill challenge. Two of your allies secure the witness and put up barricades, one companion with binoculars assists with spotting and watches your back.
You start making perception checks to spot the enemy, you or your spotter can make insight or history to decipher their tactics. The enemy might be using smoke grenades for cover. After a successful perception, you make a ranged basic attack, range is nebulous and irrelevant. You can accumulate damage to see if it's enough to take a creature down before X number of rounds go by and the enemy is at the door. Meanwhile some athletics checks are made for barricades. Maybe some allies set a booby trap near the entry way with a thievery/arcana check, which all contribute to the success/failure of the skill challenge (have to keep everyone busy, not just the sniper).
Depending on the success/failure of the skill challenge, the final encounter when the enemy busts in the door will essentially be a level lower or a level higher. Using minions, you could do a more graduated success level. Did the sniper take 4 shots? there are 3 minions instead of 6, and maybe another enemy took it to the kevlar, so he starts the encounter down some hit points.
You don't really need a combat mechanic to make attacks at long range. That feels too ripe for exploitation. When you tie it to a skill challenge, the sniper is still going to be doing their job, reducing enemy numbers, taking down some red shirts, without the complexities of a new mechanic.
And depending on how well you like the encounter you run, you can always modify things for the next skill challenge, to improve the overall experience, and you haven't tied yourself to a single mechanic you might regret later.
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Why not make the setup to the shot a move action (thus requiring the sniper to stay in place)? A move action to aim/steady/whatever else a sniper does prior to shooting.
This then gives you extra damage and range on a ranged basic attack made after it (maybe a damage bonus akin to sneak attack damage).
Kinda almost makes it a 3E-style "full round action".
A sniper could theoretically do this every round if he has positioned himself correctly.
This then gives you extra damage and range on a ranged basic attack made after it (maybe a damage bonus akin to sneak attack damage).
Kinda almost makes it a 3E-style "full round action".
A sniper could theoretically do this every round if he has positioned himself correctly.
RangerWickett
Legend
The way I figure it, any character who wants to be a sniper is already provided with plenty of ways to deal extra damage. My sole goal here is to provide a reasonably balanced way to extend their range to match what any gamer would expect a sniper to be capable of.
There are definitely plenty of ways to concoct a skill challenge to represent a group effort to aid a sniper, but I just want something that works when one player decides to hang back and provide cover fire, or when the party gets the drop on some bad guys and want to pick them off from far away.
I know it's more simulationist than 4e usually is. And I know the idea of 4e is to let everyone contribute to combat. But sometimes you're in court and the Diplomacy guy gets to shine. Sometimes there are traps and the rogue gets to show off his skills. And sometimes you put the sniper in a roost, have the rest of the party make a lot of noise to draw the bad guys out of hiding, and then let the sniper blow their brains out.
And as to whether it should be a move action or standard action to aim, I say standard action is more balanced, because it makes it easier to advance on the sniper. You realize he's aiming at you, so you run to full cover. Wait 'til he starts shooting at one of your buddies before you move again.
Ultimately, it's an incidental rule I was wondering how I should handle. A PC rifleman in the ZEITGEIST playtest was in a position to snipe (hanging back to watch a prisoner while the rest of the party ran into combat), and I wanted to give him something to do.
There are definitely plenty of ways to concoct a skill challenge to represent a group effort to aid a sniper, but I just want something that works when one player decides to hang back and provide cover fire, or when the party gets the drop on some bad guys and want to pick them off from far away.
I know it's more simulationist than 4e usually is. And I know the idea of 4e is to let everyone contribute to combat. But sometimes you're in court and the Diplomacy guy gets to shine. Sometimes there are traps and the rogue gets to show off his skills. And sometimes you put the sniper in a roost, have the rest of the party make a lot of noise to draw the bad guys out of hiding, and then let the sniper blow their brains out.
And as to whether it should be a move action or standard action to aim, I say standard action is more balanced, because it makes it easier to advance on the sniper. You realize he's aiming at you, so you run to full cover. Wait 'til he starts shooting at one of your buddies before you move again.
Ultimately, it's an incidental rule I was wondering how I should handle. A PC rifleman in the ZEITGEIST playtest was in a position to snipe (hanging back to watch a prisoner while the rest of the party ran into combat), and I wanted to give him something to do.
aco175
Legend
I would guess the best solution would be to come up with a simple mechanic that is easy to understand and use. It won't be the most lifelike and accurate, but it should cover most situations and still be fun to play. Aim to get the whole thing to less than a paragraph.
I like the idea of having a move action to aim and the standard action to shoot, minor reload. Max range of 10x base range is simple to figure out for each weapon. Allowing a shot each round may make up for the fact you are not going to kill a monster each round, unless a minion- then it just becomes fun. If a character gets 4-5 attacks off before the enemy closes might not make a big difference if the rest of the encounter is good enough. Seems there should be a feat,skill or power to get it though.
You would think the wizard guild would pick up on this and make something of their own, since they may end up being the target most times. Maybe an implement you can use along the same lines. Maybe it is tied to a certain spell or group of spells- although the later is more 3e.
I like the idea of having a move action to aim and the standard action to shoot, minor reload. Max range of 10x base range is simple to figure out for each weapon. Allowing a shot each round may make up for the fact you are not going to kill a monster each round, unless a minion- then it just becomes fun. If a character gets 4-5 attacks off before the enemy closes might not make a big difference if the rest of the encounter is good enough. Seems there should be a feat,skill or power to get it though.
You would think the wizard guild would pick up on this and make something of their own, since they may end up being the target most times. Maybe an implement you can use along the same lines. Maybe it is tied to a certain spell or group of spells- although the later is more 3e.
