D&D General So… psionic powers are no longer purely mental?

[Zardnaar]

The problem isn't that it means different things to different people.

It's that WotC's chosen design method for 5e is design-by-committee, just via survey. When there's a clear agreement about what something should be in broad strokes, e.g. everyone agrees Druids should have shapeshift (but might quibble about fine details), then this method works.* When there is deep disagreement, on the other hand, it is completely nonfunctional. That's why they tried like four shots at fixing/changing the Ranger (and Sorcerer...and Monk...and Warlock...), why they tried like three or four times to create a Psion, etc., etc.

Simply put, outside of a relatively small set of basic things--very loosely the "core four" classes + Barbarian, Druid, Paladin, and maybe Bard--it is WILDLY impractical to demand that 70% of the community agree on a design before you begin iterating. Frankly, it's impractical to demand even 50% approval before proceeding, because no group has a clear majority opinion. At best, you'll see a plurality of about 40% if you're lucky when it comes to psionics, because that more than most things has extremely strong opinions and a lot of them are....let's say "at loggerheads".

Up to a certain point, particularly with the most "general" classes, it's very good to ensure you have a broad base of solid approval before you proceed with your designs. Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard are all intentionally pretty generic classes. They aren't "for everyone" because nothing truly is "for everyone", but they're about as close as you'll get to "for everyone", and thus having the thumbs-up, even preliminarily, from a clear majority of your user base is a good idea. (I'd personally make it "anything clearly over 60% is fine, but if it's between 60% and 70%, try to figure out what the folks who aren't on board don't like, and address it", but that's just me.) After that point, however, trying to make sure that EVERY class ALWAYS gets an unequivocal supermajority is not only a waste of time, it's actively harmful to the game's design. It leads to milquetoast slop like what the 5.0 Sorcerer and Warlock were--barely functional compared to their peers and actively conflicting with the way people really play the game--or things being stuck in eternal development hell, as happened with psionics.

And now we're stuck with the worst of all worlds: psionics that are very literally just more spells that work exactly like all other spells.

Psionics have basically been just spells/powers since 3E.

Broadly speaking you would probably have 3 splits in a vote. The only unfying thing would be psionic points/psp.

Obscure 4E book means 1/3 is eliminated straight away. 4E ine was just another power class anyway.

That leaves 2E vs 3E. One of those is essentially a variant spellcaster anyway.

So some type of spellcaster with PSPs would probably be what we would get anyway. The last time it wasnt was 35 odd years ago iirc. And those rules were a hot mess.

A lot of work and complications for something thats never been popular to begin with.

 

[AnotherGuy]

So WOTC offshore the more complex ideas to 3PPs.

It is more like 3pp pick up the baton left behind.

 

[dbm]

I personally have always thought of arcane as the mental magic. I see psionics more likely socerery in that it is innate magic. In fact, in my D&D heart breaker there are (3) ways to have magic:

1. Spiritual: magic from another source that you borrow - divine, pact magic, etc. (clerics, paladins, warlocks, druids, etc.)
2. Arcane: magic harnessed from the ambient magic in the environment through study, words of power, foci, etc. (wizards, possibly artificers, etc.)
3. Innate: magic harnessed from within you (psions, sorcerers, etc.)

Rolemaster is the system you are looking for. That is literally how their three* types of magic are defined: channelling, essence, and mentalism respectively.

* There is a fourth type of magic, Arcane, introduced in some supplements which ‘predates’ the separation of magic into the three realms.

 

[Corinnguard]

Interesting...I like.

But what effect would it have?

I think the most noticeable difference would be how a spell is depicted when it's cast during a fight.

The Fireball spell has all three spell components (somatic, verbal and material). For a Wizard to cast it, they need to make a particular gesture with one hand while holding a piece of bat guano in the other and saying some esoteric words. Then they throw the bat guano at some opponent, and it bursts into flame in mid-flight.

If a Psion was to cast the same spell, they probably would have this intense look on their face (anger, rage, etc.) and the bat guano would just leap out of their hand on its' own towards some opponent and then burst into flame. Or the Psion would let the bat guano hover in midair before them as it ignited and then flew towards its' opponent. It all depends on how thematic (and scary) you want the act of spellcasting to look.

The spell in either case would function the same mechanically and have the same effect (an opponent cooked medium rare).

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think the most noticeable difference would be how a spell is depicted when it's cast during a fight.

The Fireball spell has all three spell components (somatic, verbal and material). For a Wizard to cast it, they need to make a particular gesture with one hand while holding a piece of bat guano in the other and saying some esoteric words. Then they throw the bat guano at some opponent, and it bursts into flame in mid-flight.

If a Psion was to cast the same spell, they probably would have this intense look on their face (anger, rage, etc.) and the bat guano would just leap out of their hand on its' own towards some opponent and then burst into flame. Or the Psion would let the bat guano hover in midair before them as it ignited and then flew towards its' opponent. It all depends on how thematic (and scary) you want the act of spellcasting to look.

The spell in either case would function the same mechanically and have the same effect (an opponent cooked medium rare).

i don't...object to psions having material components but i don't think they'd have the same ones as wizards and other casters, i'd maybe lean into them having an alternate set of items as focii which specialize in certain types of magic, you need a ruby to cast that fireball or any other spell that deals fire damage, a silver mirror to cast any illusion spell, that sorta thing, it fits the kind of thematic specialization that psions have tended towards in other editions.

 

[Corinnguard]

i don't...object to psions having material components but i don't think they'd have the same ones as wizards and other casters, i'd maybe lean into them having an alternate set of items as focii which specialize in certain types of magic, you need a ruby to cast that fireball or any other spell that deals fire damage, a silver mirror to cast any illusion spell, that sorta thing, it fits the kind of thematic specialization that psions have tended towards in other editions.

When it comes to Psychic Magic and expensive material components, a psychic spellcaster can use any item that has both significant meaning and value to them. The value of the item has to be greater than or equal to the spell's component cost. If a psychic spellcaster wanted to cast a Raise Dead spell (which requires a 5,000 gp diamond as a material component), the caster could use a 5,000 gp wedding ring in its' place.

PF1's Occultist class channels psychic energy thru a collection of antiques and mementos with storied pasts.

From PF1's Occult Adventures:

Steeped in esoteric lore but still strongly tied to the physical world and its trappings, occultists access magic through the power of their implements, which may be magic items or even ordinary objects with psychic significance, such as a saint’s finger bone, a dagger used in ritual sacrifices, or a necklace belonging to the occultist’s mother. With resonant and focus powers from his implements, plus psychic spells, a large set of skills, object-reading powers, and powerful binding circles, the occultist has something to add to almost any situation.

So, Psions can definitely use spells with material components that differ from those used by Arcane, Divine and Primal spellcasters.

 

[Maxperson]

I think the most noticeable difference would be how a spell is depicted when it's cast during a fight.

The Fireball spell has all three spell components (somatic, verbal and material). For a Wizard to cast it, they need to make a particular gesture with one hand while holding a piece of bat guano in the other and saying some esoteric words. Then they throw the bat guano at some opponent, and it bursts into flame in mid-flight.

If a Psion was to cast the same spell, they probably would have this intense look on their face (anger, rage, etc.) and the bat guano would just leap out of their hand on its' own towards some opponent and then burst into flame. Or the Psion would let the bat guano hover in midair before them as it ignited and then flew towards its' opponent. It all depends on how thematic (and scary) you want the act of spellcasting to look.

The spell in either case would function the same mechanically and have the same effect (an opponent cooked medium rare).

If it requires bat guano, somatic, and verbal, it's not psionics. It's just a wizard or sorcerer who has a re-flavored fireball spell.

 

[CreamCloud0]

When it comes to Psychic Magic and expensive material components, a psychic spellcaster can use any item that has both significant meaning and value to them. The value of the item has to be greater than or equal to the spell's component cost. If a psychic spellcaster wanted to cast a Raise Dead spell (which requires a 5,000 gp diamond as a material component), the caster could use a 5,000 gp wedding ring in its' place.

PF1's Occultist class channels psychic energy thru a collection of antiques and mementos with storied pasts.

From PF1's Occult Adventures:

Steeped in esoteric lore but still strongly tied to the physical world and its trappings, occultists access magic through the power of their implements, which may be magic items or even ordinary objects with psychic significance, such as a saint’s finger bone, a dagger used in ritual sacrifices, or a necklace belonging to the occultist’s mother. With resonant and focus powers from his implements, plus psychic spells, a large set of skills, object-reading powers, and powerful binding circles, the occultist has something to add to almost any situation.

So, Psions can definitely use spells with material components that differ from those used by Arcane, Divine and Primal spellcasters.

okay, but i don't think that's really what i was saying, those just sound like being able to generically replace components (having emotional significance does not make them not generic IMO), i mean having certain types of focii that correspond to being able to cast certain types of spell, rather than the all purpose tool that the basic wizard focus is.

 

[Corinnguard]

If it requires bat guano, somatic, and verbal, it's not psionics. It's just a wizard or sorcerer who has a re-flavored fireball spell.

You're right in a way. But I did mention earlier in this thread that psychics in PF1 replaced the somatic and verbal spell components with Thought and Emotion spell components. PF1 also remade psionics into another form of magic.

 

[Maxperson]

You're right in a way. But I did mention earlier in this thread that psychics in PF1 replaced the somatic and verbal spell components with Thought and Emotion spell components. PF1 also remade psionics into another form of magic.

I liked how 3e did it with the auditory, olfactory, and visual effects that signaled when psionics were being used.