D&D General So… psionic powers are no longer purely mental?

[LuisCarlos17f]

If psionic powers use a different game system then monsters with psionic powers wouldn't be so easy to sell in the next sourcebooks.

I guess the "spirit magic" with V,S and M components and the true psionic powers could use the same list of powers/spells but the way into to be casted by the "mystic" (spirit spellcaster) and the psion would be different.

Maybe the mystic as spirit spellcaster will be the future official class..... but WotC will show the psion like a variant of mystic class. Then this should mean we could play our psion with power points if we wanted.

* Let's try it with other example. The PCs have to investigate a murder and discover who is the killer before the next victim to be killed..... but the killer is.... the cursed doll "Anabelle" using psionic powers without V or S components. How could the PCs to discover the truth?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Insofar as nothing is truly needed, you are correct. However, the game is balanced with the monsters weighed against class abilities, which would include psionics. If psionics weren't able to be countered, dispelled, etc., WotC would balance the class another way to keep it in line with their other classes.

That's a good definition of balance, but it's not the one WotC uses in 5e. A psion could easily shine in other ways while still preserving the balance as set forth by WotC.

I do think the imbalance that would be created would be relatively minor. If a DM wanted to exclude psionics from being countered, dispelled, etc., I'd be down with that.

Not that it's a direct comparison, but there are a lot of "magical" abilities spread out amongst the classes they have no counter and are detrimental to an opponent.

Others have said it would be unfair for not-magic psionics because of how hard it would be to prevent casting in captivity, but nothing prevents wildshaping out of shackles and blindfolds. No enemy can prevent a paladin from a burst of radiant smite damage. Monks using KI to do all sorts of crazy things can't be countered. GOO warlocks already have invisible telepathic communication. Rogues with expertise in persuasion don't set off alarms or give off mental waves of power.

There are many many player abilities that allow them to affect the world in "invisible" ways. It could be possible to develop a set of abilities/powers that weren't overtly sparkly hair and ectoplasm dripping from ones shirt sleeves.

Would combining the GOO telepathy with expertise skill in persuasion in practice feel like a reliable reusable slow Charm Person spell?

 

[Maxperson]

Not that it's a direct comparison, but there are a lot of "magical" abilities spread out amongst the classes they have no counter and are detrimental to an opponent.

Others have said it would be unfair for not-magic psionics because of how hard it would be to prevent casting in captivity, but nothing prevents wildshaping out of shackles and blindfolds. No enemy can prevent a paladin from a burst of radiant smite damage. Monks using KI to do all sorts of crazy things can't be countered. GOO warlocks already have invisible telepathic communication. Rogues with expertise in persuasion don't set off alarms or give off mental waves of power.

There are many many player abilities that allow them to affect the world in "invisible" ways. It could be possible to develop a set of abilities/powers that weren't overtly sparkly hair and ectoplasm dripping from ones shirt sleeves.

Would combining the GOO telepathy with expertise skill in persuasion in practice feel like a reliable reusable slow Charm Person spell?

That's true, but I don't think there are any comparables to psionics other than spellcasting, which can be countered, dispelled, etc. I'm arguing from that standpoint.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

If psionic powers use a different game system then monsters with psionic powers wouldn't be so easy to sell in the next sourcebooks.

I guess the "spirit magic" with V,S and M components and the true psionic powers could use the same list of powers/spells but the way into to be casted by the "mystic" (spirit spellcaster) and the psion would be different.

Maybe the mystic as spirit spellcaster will be the future official class..... but WotC will show the psion like a variant of mystic class. Then this should mean we could play our psion with power points if we wanted.

* Let's try it with other example. The PCs have to investigate a murder and discover who is the killer before the next victim to be killed..... but the killer is.... the cursed doll "Anabelle" using psionic powers without V or S components. How could the PCs to discover the truth?

Detect Thoughts? Putting the doll into a box so it doesn't have LOS?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

That's true, but I don't think there are any comparables to psionics other than spellcasting, which can be countered, dispelled, etc. I'm arguing from that standpoint.

I think here is where we bump up against everyone having different ideas what a psion would look like that strongly influences our perceptions and make it so difficult to talk about.

I have less of a problem not making my psion susceptible to anti-magic because im picturing a class with a very limited toolset they are very good at using. The idea of having a "Charm Person" that works as a combination of telepathic communication and Persuasion rolls means the balance is in talking time and limiting its use to out of combat with the compensation it's unlimited use and it's use cases could be enhanced over levels.

 

[Remathilis]

I think here is where we bump up against everyone having different ideas what a psion would look like that strongly influences our perceptions and make it so difficult to talk about.

I have less of a problem not making my psion susceptible to anti-magic because im picturing a class with a very limited toolset they are very good at using. The idea of having a "Charm Person" that works as a combination of telepathic communication and Persuasion rolls means the balance is in talking time and limiting its use to out of combat with the compensation it's unlimited use and it's use cases could be enhanced over levels.

I would say though that's never actually been the psion(cists) forte. Psionics has always been roughly on par with magic. 2e was probably closer to a cleric-level power, but 3e on was sorcerer/wizard levels. As such, they should have as least enough wallop as a full caster. Making silent persuasion checks isn't going to cut it.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I would say though that's never actually been the psion(cists) forte. Psionics has always been roughly on par with magic. 2e was probably closer to a cleric-level power, but 3e on was sorcerer/wizard levels. As such, they should have as least enough wallop as a full caster. Making silent persuasion checks isn't going to cut it.

If that was the limit of the power I don't disagree with you. But if each power has expanding abilities and what could be done with "Telepathy" as a focus then the class becomes viable.

Kinda sorta like how the Rolemaster rolled out increasing power levels over the characters lifetime but without constantly choosing "new" powers all the time.

Attached is an example of you never played Rolemaster. Essentially spread the power ups over 20 levels and simplify them to better fit 5e vibes.

 

[Remathilis]

If that was the limit of the power I don't disagree with you. But if each power has expanding abilities and what could be done with "Telepathy" as a focus then the class becomes viable.

Kinda sorta like how the Rolemaster rolled out increasing power levels over the characters lifetime but without constantly choosing "new" powers all the time.

Attached is an example of you never played Rolemaster. Essentially spread the power ups over 20 levels and simplify them to better fit 5e vibes.

That chart just reminded me why I don't play Rolemaster. My eyes glazed over trying to read it!

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

Once again I maintain that having psionic powers do everything magic does but require a different system is actually a tax on DMs. If something can be done through an extant system, it should be; the only reason to create a new system is because one of the extant systems are inadequate.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I would say though that's never actually been the psion(cists) forte. Psionics has always been roughly on par with magic. 2e was probably closer to a cleric-level power, but 3e on was sorcerer/wizard levels. As such, they should have as least enough wallop as a full caster. Making silent persuasion checks isn't going to cut it.

i can't say i really know the workings of psions in previous editions but i thought they at least actually had to stick to one or two specializations/domains/power spheres? or end up a jack of all trades, a psion might spec into telepathy and pyromancy and have potent telepath and fire abilities beyond what an equivalent caster of their level might have but wouldn't have the diversity of spells they'd have.