So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats

[DracoSuave]

You realize, of course, that you chose the race with the best defense bonus, took a feat that is being pointed at as part of the problem, and went with a heavy shield and specialization build, and demigod, and a +5 basic magic neck when it's actually fairly unlikely to occur, on top of having a base 14 in a tertiary stat which is actually fairly abnormal?

Had I gone Dragonborn, the will would be one point off, reflexes as well. Only 1 point difference each. Fort would be on target.

Half the stated problem is people specializing in armor and AC. I did as well... in a different direction, being mindful of my weakness and seeking to mitigate it. Why would I do a dumb-ass Hide armor build when Shield is easier and gives you more to work with?

+5 basic magic neck is unlikely to occur?!? By that point you'd have access to 10 +5 or better items, one of which could be a neck. But then again, what you call 'unlikely to occur' I call 'Ritual Caster'. A feat only -1- person in the party needs to take. In this example he's only sporting a +4 weapon (not signifigant to the point), because his attack bonus was pretty high, and one thing he's not hurting for is damage.

A 14 is abnormal? Given that the only feat with -major- requirements he'd want is Light Blade Mastery, and that's -way- out of reach, he doesn't have to worry about rocking his other attributes. His primary and secondary for his class is -covered-, so his weaker NAD is the next focus, because -that's smart.-

Robust Defenses is a problem? That was in instead of Great Fort and Iron Will, which he has -more- than enough feat room to put back in. Here I thought the problem was the feats that gave untyped bonuses. But if Robust D is a 'problem', they can be exchanged for GF, IW, or their epic +2 to certain save varients.

I mean, it's mostly a valid example, but I'm not sure it's any better than the opposing side of the argument using the following example:

21st Dwarf Laser Cleric / whatever / not demigod with a +4 neck (because he only has a 20th, 21st, and 22nd item and at least one of the 21st/22nd is his holy symbol, so he'll hang onto that +4 survival cloak or whatever)

Crusader weapon covers your weapon and your holy symbol. And if your NAD is your achilles heel, you're foolish for ignoring it and going for armor instead.

Con 17 / Dex 10 / Wis 24 (Cha 22)

All sorts of non-defense feats, like all the domain ones from divine power, channel divinity, toughness, dwarven durability, etc

AC 33, Fort 27, Ref 24, Will 33

Not exactly a valuable contribution to the discussion, though.

You only get one divinity feat, one toughness, one dwarven durability.

So you have feat-room to get yourself where you need to go.

But then again, you're complaining you have no defense while you're dumping all your defense in exchange for hit points. What do you need a 17 Con for? Those extra couple hitpoints don't help you when you have defenses made of paper. Toughness is -overrated- in a build like this; it's better in a build when you get hit less often. Put some of those Con points into Strenth, pick up shield feats, get your reflex up to a less terribad level, because -you have the feat room to do it.-

Seriously. It isn't hard to get good defenses in this game. You just have to -bother to take them- with the feat room you have.

 

[Elric]

So I decided to put my money where my mouth is, and I put together a character just to see where its defenses lie.

This is a rather revisionist way of looking at it, since one page ago you thought that people were saying FRW scales poorly relative to AC because monster to-hit goes up faster for FRW attacks than for AC attacks, rather than the correct reason, which is that PC FRW defenses go up more slowly than AC.

21st level Human Sorcerer/Arcane Wellspring/Demigod.

24 Strength, 16 Dexterity, 26 Charisma.

You cannot achieve this stat array at level 22 as a human while starting with 22-point buy. In particular, you can’t start with 16,16,14 on 22 points.

Relevant feats:
Armor Prof: Leather
Shield Prof: Light
Shield Prof: Heavy
Robust Defenses (to replace Iron Will and Great Fortitude)
Shield Specialization

At level 21, getting +5 gear for neck and armor is trivial. (Ritual Caster is but one way to do it)

AC 38, Fort 35, Reflex 34, Will 38.

Robust Defenses and Shield Specialization both provide feat bonuses that do not stack, so the Reflex defense calculation is incorrect.

Now, firstly, my best NAD is not lagging anywhere behind my AC. It is, in fact, -ahead- of the curve. But that's beside the point. I went through the list of level 21 monsters to see who -could- hit this guy with a better chance than 10 or better.

I didn't find one.

So, I looked at the DMG for inspiration.

I didn’t need to pull out the DMG for inspiration. I pulled out the MM, looked at the very first monster listed for level 21 in the index, the Ghaele of Winter, which has +25 vs. Reflex on its at-will, which means it hits this guy (even with the invalid stat array and incorrect stacking math) on a 9 or better vs. Reflex. Done!

Moving further, a lot of level 1 monsters actually have a +9 to hit AC, meaning that the only way to get 50/50 parity with them is to have 19 AC or better... which leaves out a -lot- of classes, especially those that aren't sporting a shield, or plate, or AC bonuses from class.

Nope! There’s not a single level 1 monster in the MM that has +9 to hit AC. To be fair, I also checked Manual of the Planes, Draconomicon and Open Grave and there aren’t any there either. Furthermore, 50/50 parity against a monster that has +9 to hit AC would require a 20 AC, not a 19 AC.

Oh, and yes, this guy WILL be taking the Epic feats, because a 4 point swing at his level is certainly -not- trivial... and neither will his Divine Miracle allowing him to spam Sudden Scales every round for +11 to whatever Defense is hit....

You're worried about characters being autohit, I'm worried about how the heck this guy can go down in the first place!

Divine Miracle leads to characters that are too powerful? I never could have guessed.

Gentlemen, this thread has been fun, but I’ve got to bounce.

 

[DracoSuave]

This is a rather revisionist way of looking at it, since one page ago you thought that people were saying FRW scales poorly relative to AC because monster to-hit goes up faster for FRW attacks than for AC attacks, rather than the correct reason, which is that PC FRW defenses go up more slowly than AC.

Actually I made the claim that FRW was -always- two off from AC, and that your best FRW will be increasing at more or less than the same rate as your AC. Big world of difference.

You cannot achieve this stat array at level 22 as a human while starting with 22-point buy. In particular, you can’t start with 16,16,14 on 22 points.

Me Facepalm there. Still, build is one reflex off with -1 to reflex, and the feats are still quite doable. It only cares that you hit 15 Dex at level 11, for reasons I can't honestly remember at this time.

Robust Defenses and Shield Specialization both provide feat bonuses that do not stack, so the Reflex defense calculation is incorrect.

I didn't stack Robust Defenses and Shield Spec, tho you are right the math is off (because of the Dex thing above, which I admit is my error)

Armor Class
38 (+10base, +10level, +7ability, +0racial, +1feat, +3armor, +2shield, +4enhancement,+0class)
Fortitude
35 (+10base, +10level, +7ability, +1racial, +2feat, +0armor, +0shield, +5enhancement,+0class)
Reflex
33 (+10base, +10level, +2ability, +1racial, +2feat, +1armor, +2shield, +5enhancement, +0class)
Will
38 (+10base, +10level, +8ability, +1racial, +2feat, +0armor, +0shield, +5enhancement, +2class)

Regardless, yes, his -worst- FRW is 'low', but at level 21, with monsters needing 9 to hit it... let's see... he can still get another +1 from enhancement, -1 from armor tho, but +5 more points from levels, monsters getting +9 means that he'll be, at level 30 (in theory) needing a 5 or better to hit. Fortunately, even without Demigod he still has his powers to cover his arse.

Meanwhile, the other defenses are -above the curve.- So while -one defense- of his is low (as it should be), the monsters are playing catch up- His armor is going to go up another +7 points, his Will and Fort still have +6 room to go.

I didn’t need to pull out the DMG for inspiration. I pulled out the MM, looked at the very first monster listed for level 21 in the index, the Ghaele of Winter, which has +25 vs. Reflex on its at-will, which means it hits this guy (even with the invalid stat array and incorrect stacking math) on a 9 or better vs. Reflex. Done!

True. But 9 to hit is a far cry from the auto-hit the forum is crying about.

Nope! There’s not a single level 1 monster in the MM that has +9 to hit AC. To be fair, I also checked Manual of the Planes, Draconomicon and Open Grave and there aren’t any there either. Furthermore, 50/50 parity against a monster that has +9 to hit AC would require a 20 AC, not a 19 AC.

I relent this point, it isn't a level 1 monster that I was thinking of. It was a level -2- monster with +9 to hit. (Goblin Sharpshooter).

Granted, that's still a 19 Ac for parity at level 1... -1 to hit for a level 1 version, or +1 for the level gain for the player.

Divine Miracle leads to characters that are too powerful? I never could have guessed.

Gentlemen, this thread has been fun, but I’ve got to bounce.

Oh god, yes it is mighty. But it's in the game, and there are other epic destinies that get you to that level of power as well, just through different means. 'So long as you ignore the stuff that's in the game, monsters are too broken' is a flawed argument, ya?

 

[keterys]

+5 basic magic neck is unlikely to occur?!? By that point you'd have access to 10 +5 or better items, one of which could be a neck.

Presumably you mean a party of 5 would have access to 10 - of those 10 items, perhaps 1 or 2 is a +5 neck, so he's got a 1 or 2 in 5 chance? Alternatively, they could effectively disenchant 4 of the 10 items to use enchant item at 21st level (but no earlier) to make a bland +5 magic neck? That seems awfully unlikely to me over someone having ye olde +4 Cloak of Survival, Stormwalker's Cloak, Healer's Brooch, etc.

Again, it's not that your example was invalid. It was just as valid as my example. Nowhere remotely _near_ the median, so not very helpful for the discussion.

And even in that maximized case, a Lvl + 3 soldier still hits Reflex on a 3 Not that it's really possible to stop every instance of such, but it's funny nonetheless.

 

[Bayuer]

[quoteracoSuave]
AC 38, Fort 35, Reflex 34, Will 38.

Now, firstly, my best NAD is not lagging anywhere behind my AC. It is, in fact, -ahead- of the curve. But that's beside the point. I went through the list of level 21 monsters to see who -could- hit this guy with a better chance than 10 or better.[/quote]

Which is why Epic isn't exactly hard. But people are comparing to L+4. A naga for instance would be hitting on a 4. Without the +2 FRW defenses that would be a 2. And thats on a character thats spent 3? feats on upping AC/reflex defense. Few other characters are going to have defenses that high... at least without the new feats.

Firstly you taken Reboust Defense with is one of math fixing feats! Secodnly Shield Spezialization don't stuck. You can't have 16,16,14 as starting array (16,16,13,11,10,8 array), so your stats will be S24 Con13 Dex15 Int10, Wis12, Cha26. Shield Spezialization cost you 2 feats! That's huge. 2/18 feats taken. Why do you thing that Iron Will and any other paragon defense feat isn't fix? You can easily see that you state them as must have for your build... And this is all we talking about. And on 21 lvl you will not have for sure +5 neck item! On 22 lvl we can agree, but not 21lvl. If someone will take it at this level, he must understand that this +1 is very, very needed.

And this is heavy optizmied build! With Demigod and Shield taken (I don't see sorrcerer running with heavy shield and leather armor but this is not important flaw).

And epic isn't hard becouse of that, but becouse too many healing options and option you can take extended rest and you power is crushing in fghts L,L+1.

I did the same character with Character Builder and...:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 21
Human, Sorcerer, Arcane Wellspring, Demigod
Spell Source: Dragon Magic
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 24, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 26.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 35 Fort: 32 Reflex: 31 Will: 35
HP: 125 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 31

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana.

FEATS
1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
1: Shield Proficiency (Heavy)
2: Armor Proficiency (Leather)

POWERS

ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Irrefutable Snakeskin Armor +4, Amulet of Aranea +4
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

Here is version with +5 neck, AC items:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 21
Human, Sorcerer, Arcane Wellspring, Demigod
Spell Source: Dragon Magic
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 24, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 26.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 37 Fort: 33 Reflex: 31 Will: 36
HP: 125 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 31

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana.

FEATS
1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
1: Shield Proficiency (Heavy)
2: Armor Proficiency (Leather)

POWERS

ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Absence Amulet +5, Slick Anathema Armor +5
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

And here with Rebous Defenses and Shield Spezialization:
Dex 15 is prerquiste for Shield Spezialization but since we have retrain option so on 21 lvl we can have 2 epic feats... So:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 21
Human, Sorcerer, Arcane Wellspring, Demigod
Spell Source: Dragon Magic
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 24, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 26.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 36 Fort: 34 Reflex: 33 Will: 37
HP: 125 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 31

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana.

FEATS
1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
1: Shield Proficiency (Heavy)
2: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
20: Shield Specialization
21: Robust Defenses

POWERS

ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Irrefutable Snakeskin Armor +4, Amulet of Aranea +4
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

This version where you spend 5 feats! 5 feats to make your stats better! WOW!
21 lvl Soldier have +28 vs. AC; +26 vs. NADs.
Your probably stats: AC: 35 Fort: 32 Reflex: 31 Will: 35
AC on 7, Fort on 6, Refl on 3, Will on 9. And this is 21 lvl, where gap just starting to show! On 30 level this numbers will be strongly worst:/

And let's see version with feats (+4 magic neck, AC items):
AC: 36 Fort: 34 Reflex: 33 Will: 37
Ac on 9, Fort on 8, Ref on 5, Will 11.

You probably will invest in Epic Ref on 22 lvl. this will make Ref hitted on 9.
Feats spended to achive this: Leather armor, Armor Specialization (or Shield Specialization), Light Shield, Heavy Shield, Reboust Defenses, Epic Reflex - 6 from 18 total feats!
On late epic you will probably take another Epic feat for your FOR so thats 7/18 feats lost...

As you can see Draco, withou Rebust Defense you NADs sucks. you calculated this feat so you think it's needed. And this is what we were previously saying. This feat is must have! Just like Weapon Expertise... So 8/18 feats spended just to make math work. Man. And on 21 lvl gap isn't realy huge. Rebust makes it more solid as I stated before. You best NAD is now abouve averaga is it was on 1 lvl.

Anyway I must agree with Elric. There aren't any new facts in this thread, so there's no more any reason to take it further.

 

[KarinsDad]

You realize, of course, that you chose the race with the best defense bonus, took a feat that is being pointed at as part of the problem, and went with a heavy shield and specialization build, and demigod, and a +5 basic magic neck when it's actually fairly unlikely to occur, on top of having a base 14 in a tertiary stat which is actually fairly abnormal?

Of course. He is not trying for a median build to be "fair", he's trying for a tricked out one to support his POV.

Elric beat me to pointing out that his starting point buy was too large.

And you pointed out the +5 to defense item.

Something that was not pointed out is that this is level 21. This is the best Epic level for this (along with level 22 where there are no changes).

Let's look back just one level to level 20:


Level 20:

AC 36, Fort 32, Reflex 29, Will 35. No Demigod. +4 item instead of a +5 item. No Shield Specialization. All ability scores one lower. No Robust Defenses for Reflex.

Against AC: Level +3 through Level +7.

Same level creatures hit on a 9 through 13.

Against NADS: Level +1 through Level +5

Same level creatures hit on a 4 through 14.

Average against weakest NAD: Level +4

Same level creatures hit on a 5.


Level 21:

AC 38, Fort 35, Reflex 33, Will 38.

Against AC: Level +3 through Level +7.

Same level creatures hit on a 10 through 14.

Against NADS: Level +1 through Level +5

Same level creatures hit on a 7 through 16.

Average against weakest NAD: Level +4

Same level creatures hit on a 8.

Note: At level 21, the PC is still has Iron Will and Great Fortitude since he had to retrain Shield Specialization and took Robust Defenses, so he has to wait to retrain out IW and GF.


The tricked out PC with as many boosts as possible, especially in his weak Reflex Defense, has a nice range here at level 21 because all of his NADs increased by 3 (or 4) for a single level. His range at level 20, not so good. His range as he goes through Epic again will start to drop.

This assumes that the PC takes Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes and then takes two extra retrains to train them out.

Note: I did not have time to check if Draco used +4 armor or +5 armor. I also did not have time to double check my math.


Do this for level 30 with no PHB II feats and see what you get.

 

[Nail]

As has been pointed out, the turn-over levels for each tier are poor, poor, poor examples for build-testing. Very poor. If you do the math across all levels, there's a "saw-tooth" pattern with attacks, defences, etc....with levels 1, 11, and 21 being at the top of each of the saw teeth.

Far better to use mid-tier levels, like 5, 15, and 25.


...and what's with this fixation with 30th level? Precious few of us will play to that level, and even fewer will stay at that level for any significant amount of gaming time. Knock it off!

 

[KarinsDad]

...and what's with this fixation with 30th level? Precious few of us will play to that level, and even fewer will stay at that level for any significant amount of gaming time. Knock it off!

I will get to that level. I WILL!!!!

Dagnabbit.

Actually, level 29/30 is worse case scenario. The PC has no more offensive/defensive gains at that point (shy of backfilling any +5 magic items to +6).

 

[Bayuer]

...and what's with this fixation with 30th level? Precious few of us will play to that level, and even fewer will stay at that level for any significant amount of gaming time. Knock it off!

I will reach that level and then become god. Then I will return to our realm and make designers of 4E pay for what they done! Bwhahahaha

 

[cdrcjsn]

Wait, who said that monsters should only have a 50/50 chance to hit at higher levels?

PCs have even more ways to heal, often without taking up surges, as they go up in levels.

If anything, monsters should hit MORE often if you want to keep the balance.

And high level combats don't take 10+ rounds (at least not at 18th level).

The only times I've seen that happen was when the encounter was built like it was a 3e encounter (with an EL of 2-4 higher than the party's average level).

Or if you fight a room full of insubstantial controllers that dominate/blind/stun/daze your party...round...after...round.