So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats

[Bayuer]

@KarinsDad
+1
That's one of the factor I didn't mentioned before.

I will just add that when monster have easier time hitting you NADs and place effects on PCs, the game become much longer, couse that just hinder PCs more, not make the game more challanging. In fact, it makes game more boring.

 

[BartD]

How would it work to just pick monsters from 1/2/3 levels lower from levels 5/10/25? That should on average reduce their attacks and defenses by 1/2/3 and hence work pretty much like the feats.

I do not have enough experience with this to evaluate the effects fully, but how do you think it would work out? Is it a big problem that this will also reduce monsters' attacks against AC?

 

[James McMurray]

Look at Orcus Touch of Dead (recharge 6) power:
+ 33 vs. Fortitude (when he hits you, you die)
High DEF - 41 (hited on 8 on die), Middle DEF - 38 (hited on 5 on die), Lowest DEF - 33 (hited on 2 on die).

Just thought I should point out that you don't die when he hits you. You're knocked to 0 hit points. At epic level that might actually make you more powerful.

Player's gain levels and gain more power. They have more options now. The monsters gain levels too, gains more power, but your option as DM are lesser, couse you don't want kill your party! You can't make as challanging options for monsters as the player's have. Higher your level, lowest the options for monster are.

Have you run an epic level campaign? I have, and I can tell you with no fear of uncertainty that PCs are a heck of alot more resilient than you seem to think they are. The epic level GM has an insane amount of options for what he throws at the party, and unless he specifically builds encounters to beat them, they are unlikely to walk away with worse than a few bruises.

 

[Bayuer]

Just thought I should point out that you don't die when he hits you. You're knocked to 0 hit points. At epic level that might actually make you more powerful.

Ok they are dying. That means if you were have 200+ HPs you have no 0 and you laying unconcious on the ground. For the comment to second part of post... Yeah, there are some options like Deva have, that with feat gives him +2 to dmg and attack until the end of encounter, but...

Have you run an epic level campaign? I have, and I can tell you with no fear of uncertainty that PCs are a heck of alot more resilient than you seem to think they are. The epic level GM has an insane amount of options for what he throws at the party, and unless he specifically builds encounters to beat them, they are unlikely to walk away with worse than a few bruises.

I was player on epic levels and created adventure but didn't have time to run it yet. Yeas, fights get easier, so your XP for encounter should rise too. Giving a n-1, n fights on epic is pointless, couse it's to easy, but becouse of our math gap, you can't make to many n+3,n+4 fight's couse they will last for 2h-3h and if you make too challengig fight, many of players will simple be boring.

I don't said that the fights are to hard. I just says that math is bad. I'm full aware that the fights will be easier with the math fix, but I think that's what it suppose to be from the beginning. The standard encounters (level n to n+2 aren't big threat to PCs, and it is said in DMG as well).

As KarinsDad said. The most factor is time. Look at heroic. Everything goes smooth. At paragon it can be smooth too, but the combats take more and more time. Epic make very long fights. PCs will have options to take a way a bad effects but they hinder them too much and takes away precious time. Not hitting them offtem makes that worser. And as I said before. You can easily make TPK on epic, more easily than on paragon.

 

[James McMurray]

For the comment to second part of post... Yeah, there are some options like Deva have, that with feat gives him +2 to dmg and attack until the end of encounter, but...

Take a closer look at the epic destinies. Most characters will get power boosts when they're first knocked to 0 hit points. Very few of them will actually hit 0 for more than a microsecond.

 

[Elric]

That's my point. You can -say- there's a problem because 'the numbers are off' but if people actually playing at that high level aren't finding things unduly difficult, then there -is- no problem. The math might not seem to be 'elegant' and 'properly symetrical' but only if the game is actually difficult to play at high level does a problem really exist.

Scientific method, people. The theory-craft says it is difficult, now it's time to observe to support this thesis. If the observation does not support the thesis, you throw out the thesis and start again.

Even if the 'math says otherwise.'

My thesis is that the 'math' does not break down, per se, but that the values of the math are less important with the more powers and effects and tactics you have at your disposal making up for the shortfall.

We can pick some stronger tests of "the game's math doesn't work well" than "is the game too hard at high levels?" Suppose that FRW attacks were incredibly rare; then since AC scales well no amount of messing up FRW defenses would noticeably impact the game, yet the math could still break down.

Let's try the following hypothesis: "Attacks against FRW defenses becomes weaker over time compared to attacks against AC to compensate for the fact that FRW attackers scale better (and tend to be more likely to hit to start with)."

I'd definitely reject this hypothesis. There doesn't seem to be a weakening of FRW powers in general and the nastiest effects at higher levels all tend to target FRW (Bodak Reavers, Ghaele of Winter, Aboleth's Domination effects, etc.). Yet these monsters don't suffer much in their to-hit bonuses on these powers relative to monsters with much weaker attacks (compare the Death Hag to a Bodak Reaver, for example).

Lastly, the fact that we have the Epic X feats giving a +4 untyped bonus to these defenses is serious evidence in favor of the designers considering FRW scaling a problem.

 

[KarinsDad]

How would it work to just pick monsters from 1/2/3 levels lower from levels 5/10/25? That should on average reduce their attacks and defenses by 1/2/3 and hence work pretty much like the feats.

I do not have enough experience with this to evaluate the effects fully, but how do you think it would work out? Is it a big problem that this will also reduce monsters' attacks against AC?

I think this is a very nice suggestion.

I would reduce monsters by 1 level at Paragon (11) and 2 levels at Epic (21) for the same XP. Dropping them by 1 at level 5 is a little much.

Effectively what this does is have PCs run into the same level monsters at levels 10 and 11, and again at 20 and 21.

In my personal campaign, this is not very workable due to the fact that I want the PCs running into Orcus and Tiamat and such at levels 28+, but this is definitely a nice solution.

AC drops by 2 by level 30. Having it drop by zero is no big deal, especially if the defenses still drop by 2 and the hit points drop.

This is probably the best no change to the mechanics solution that I have heard.

 

[KarinsDad]

Take a closer look at the epic destinies. Most characters will get power boosts when they're first knocked to 0 hit points. Very few of them will actually hit 0 for more than a microsecond.

No doubt.

But, Orcus is still hitting some PCs with that power on a 2. Once it recharges, he would have a very good idea who to attack with it a second time. In fact, he is intelligent enough to have a very good idea who to attack with it the first time.

Getting hit on a 2 is just BAD game design no matter what other justifications are thrown into the mix.

 

[James McMurray]

Maybe, but that second hit won't kill them either. It'll barely slow them down unless for some reason they're without a Leader and nobody else has any way to get the person a healing surge.

It might be bad design, it might not. "Bad" is a value judgement, so impossible to quantify. What it definitely isn't is a threat to the types fo characters Orcus will be facing.

I know this is the EnWorld rules forum, so math is God. But personally, math is completely unimportant when it does nothing to help model the situation. In this example, it doesn't, because the hit is a tiny fraction of the actual encounter, and can actually make Orcus die sooner if his swing lands.

I don't doubt in the slightest that the math at epic is different than the math at hero or paragon. What I doubt is that it's a "bad design" because of it. One set of equations looked at in isolation is meaningless when attempting to pass judgement on an entire complex sytem.

 

[Bayuer]

Take a closer look at the epic destinies. Most characters will get power boosts when they're first knocked to 0 hit points. Very few of them will actually hit 0 for more than a microsecond.

I'm lookin at them now. Well, some extra save, spend healing surge... Anyway we going off topic. That don't change anything. Just minor add-ons. The problem is not when you go to 0 HP, but with hitting monsters and monsters hitting DEFs.

Maybe, but that second hit won't kill them either. It'll barely slow them down unless for some reason they're without a Leader and nobody else has any way to get the person a healing surge.

Barley? Without the Leader the game will crush PCs. Have you ever played withou Leader on higher leveles? Withou Leader the party will be dead in few simple encounters.

Again. We don't talking about killing PCs and hit points. We talking about the math so stay on the topic please. About monsters challenge and how they powers are compared to PCs powers I was talking already.

I know this is the EnWorld rules forum, so math is God. But personally, math is completely unimportant when it does nothing to help model the situation. In this example, it doesn't, because the hit is a tiny fraction of the actual encounter, and can actually make Orcus die sooner if his swing lands.

Yeah. And you are probably roleplayer who thinks we are all powergamers, and we just make our build better, and better... (Moto! Moto!)
The math is everything. This are powers, auras, hitting, damage. Everything! Better hit (provied by Expertise with is math fix) makes battle shorter. Better defenses (provided by Robust Defenses Epic FRW) makes the monster not autohit weak defenses! Thus the game is more challanging cous player don't know if he will be hit or not. In curent situation it is:
DMG - The Orcuc recharged his power.
Player - Yeah! Let's see if he can roll 1!

I understand that many of you think it's a feature of Epic play. I could agree with you if there will not be feats from PHB2 that suddenly make everything work on 50/50 hit chance of everything. Anyway. This are facts. You only say, what if or maybe is should be that.
Skill Challanges was fine to? Stealth Rules? Many overpowered powers? We saw errata. Math was broken. We have PHB2 feats! Hurray!