So, about Expertise...

[77IM]

Guy A needs to take the feat to remain effective (becuase being 6-9 points behind in attack bonus is ineffective).

The counterargument to this, is that Guy A can take some other feat instead, in order to become just as effective, but in some other fashion.

But I have yet to see the feat that equals Expertise in effectiveness, at any level. There are some that come close (Weapon Proficiency with a superior weapon, certain multiclass feats; the Mastery feats and defense feats are certainly nice), but these all stack with Expertise, and PCs have enough feat slots left over to take Expertise. So, really, I would contend that Expertise is maybe balanced for levels 1-6 when you don't have enough feat slots to get both Expertise plus the other feats that are crucial to your concept (say, power swap feats, TWF, skill training, that sort of thing).

The other counterargument I'm hearing is that it's OK for Guy A and Guy B to be imbalanced because not everyone values character effectiveness and some people prefer to build characters based on role-playing even at the expense of effectiveness. But this argument either admits that Expertise is imbalanced, or claims that the question of its balance is irrelevant; it's not actually an argument that the feat is balanced.

-- 77IM

 

[gribble]

If there's crazy stuff like that at level 1, I have no problem believing that there is crazier stuff by level 30.

Don't be so sure. My lvl 17 taclord still has this power. He's swapped out higher level dailies and kept his first level one. With a high Int bonus, it's just that good.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you want to get non-theoretical, lead the attack is a warlord daily 1 that, if it hits, can radically change the expected outcome of a solo encounter. I've seen it happen many times (and I weep for my poor solos ).

But there are people that will argue that Lead the Attack should hit 60% of the time at 30th level, just like it does at 1st level.

Otherwise, why would WotC have added Expertise to PHB II? Obviously that same frequency of to hit is needed, or the designers would not have added it.

argumentum ad verecundiam

 

[gribble]

The MW implementation is much better than the Feat implementation, but it's still flawed in a couple of ways when compared to the flat background bonus or reduced monster defenses fixes.

Good points. Where can I subscribe to your newsletter?


I don't like the "reduce monster defenses" errata, but having seen the to-hit problems firsthand in my Paragon game (not even epic yet!), I think something has to be done. Maybe the static boosts...

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

Whether a build has an expected damage value of infinity isn't actually particularly relevant. The idea is that if one attack by you on average leads to >=1 additional attack, which has the same properties of generating additional attacks as the original attack, then your expected damage is infinite.

This is quite different from a build that always does an infinite amount of damage. This is quite similar to the St. Petersburg paradox. The probability of doing 3000+ damage is driving the infinite expected damage calculation, but such large amounts of damage are never relevant.

So a probability distribution of the damage that you do is more relevant for these characters. Two characters might both have infinite expected damage due to on average unending sequences of attacks, but if one character gets that because half of the time when he attacks he gets 2 extra attacks, and another character gets that because 1/20 of the time when he attacks, he gets 20 extra attacks, the first character is much, much stronger. The second character is essentially an ordinary character who auto-kills 1/20 of the time; extremely powerful, but not so strong that only another "infinite" build could be its equal. If the first build got 2 extra attacks 45% of the time it would no longer do infinite expected damage, but it would still be the stronger build.

Best post in the thread.

Second best post in the thread.

 

[WalterKovacs]

It's possible to currently make up the gap in the lag that creates the match problem that makes expertise necessary, for example a fighter with Kensei paragon path and demi-god. That gets you +3 right there over say a paladin with the same strength and weapon type. However, instead of requiring specific class, paragon path and epic destiny, you get it all in a single feat.

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

We are discussing synergies that give a bonus to hit, not any other types of synergies.

actually this is you attempting to hijack the thread and pigeonhole it in some tangential space where you can rant about your version of the "real math".

Are you claiming that 30th level groups have the same number of these types of synergies as 1st level groups?

are you claiming it's not more likely that a 30th level encounter will put debilitating effects on the pc's that block them from gaining use of said synergies?

Are you claiming that 30th level groups have the same to hit boost of these types of synergies as 1st level groups?

ae you ignoring that getting these synergies into play will be much harder vs teleporting, flying, insubstantial creatures with action points and a host of debilitating effects?

There are 17 powers in the PHB that give a bonus to an attack roll. Most of those are not available at level one.

and this is relevant how? how many powers are there on monsters that cause penalties to attack? how many are available at level 1?

Most prestige classes have a way to increase their chance to hit. Sure, many of those are limited, but they do exist.

I assume you mean paragon paths not prestige classes. Are you proposing that you must take these in order to be effective?

There are dozens and dozens of powers in the PHB that shift allies or foes or knock foes prone that increase the frequency of Combat Advantage alone. High level PCs can get Combat Advantage on a significantly higher percentage of attacks.

so can high level monsters. In fact I would argue it's massively harder to gain combat advantage repeatedly against a lot of the high level monsters because they liberally hand out daze and stun effects and they have powerful move abilities that let them avoid being out maneuvered.

There are higher level abilities that give an increase in the number of action points. That equates to an increase in the number of PC attacks.

which is directly offset by the increase in similar abilities among high level monsters. Above a certain level the proportion of monsters that have repeated ways to attack more than one pc per round sky rockets.

There are higher level abilities that allow for an attack re-roll. That equates to an increase in the number of successful PC attacks.

Everything you're saying would be fine if the party continued to fight gobins and orcs but they move on to giants, devils, dragons and orcus. The game scales nicely if you're paying attention. you seem to believe that only the pc's capabilities get better. take a look at all the aura's and debilitating effects high level creatures have. They almost all have a way to push, pull, knock prone, daze, stun, immobilize or add ongoing dmg.

Take a look at level 25 death knight. has an aura 10 that gives undead +2 to ATT. This is pretty synergistic and requires no powers. He also has a minor challenge that's better than any challenge pc's get. He's got a burst two power that does 41 avg dmg and pumps undead dmg by 7 (including his own) for a turn and it's rechargeable. He can push a defender 5 squares and prevent him approaching him even while marking you in a way that makes you suffer greatly in attacking others. He has attacks that get pumped by adjacent allies (the same allies he's pumping with +2 ATT and +7 dmg). what low level creature matches this for synergies? I didn't look around, I just picked one monster at level 25. I'm sure there are some with more powers and some with less but the point being bad guys powers scale too.

There is no doubt about it. The chance to hit decreases over 29 levels compared to the defenses: stat increase (4) + magic (6) + 15 < 29. But, it is only true that this is a serious problem if one ignores the additional to hit synergies gained over those levels.

It is a serious problem since the game is based upon this not happening and th feat widens the potential gap between optimized and non optimized characters. You put your blinders on here and steam roll forward.

Your position is pretty much this:
PC's should have a decreasing ability to hit because they have more powers/options/synergies.
Shouldn't the corallary be:
Monsters should have a decreasing chance to hit because they have more powers/options/synergies?

Nobody is disputing the decrease change in to hit math here, it is a matter of disputing the frequency of higher level to hit synergies. A +3 to hit boost at higher level breaks the math a lot here: stat increase (4) + magic (6) + 15 + 3 is still < 29, but it is only less than it by one. There are a many ways to get synergy boosts >=1 at high levels that do not exist at low level.

FOR BOTH TEAMS.

A PC minmaxed a bit (even without Expertise) for to hit can get his same level chance to hit into the 60% to 70% range at high level (20 starting stat, Kensai, Demigod, Fighter class, etc. is +5 greater than the example I gave above and takes that same level example to 70% hit chance). Expertise takes such a PC consistently into the 75+% to 85% range for same level opponents. That's not balanced either.

First no pc can reach 85% hit chance consistently. Second 4e is not solely about same level encounters. There are also a lot of creatures that can work that low will defense fighter into a puddle of goo.

And, the fact that people ignore that many higher level foes are solos blows me away. Sure, the NPC might get as many as 3 or even 4 attacks in, but the PCs at those levels can get 5 to 10 attacks in depending on situation. With the number of additional conditions that can occur on a PC attack, the odds are definitely in the favor of the PCs.

This speaks to encounter design, and future releases of monster manuals.

PS. Search the web for people who have played at high level. The general consensus that I have heard so far is that high level is fairly easy. There are just too many ways to pound enemies and assist allies, keeping the action economy in favor of the PCs.

high level dnd has always been problematic. A lot of this is because frequently the people who love playing at the top levels are munchkins with a soft dm. DnD loses some or all of it's appeal for a lot of players above mid levels. I'm definitely in that camp. There are other problems beyond this. High level campaigns sometimes start at mid to low high level (i.e. build a 18th level pc and begin adventuring) this usually means the pc's got to spend X number of gold on magic items that exactly fit their optimization model. No found treasures that work well but aren't the 100% best choice for that build. You're also ignoring the fact that a lot of players argue that combats are pitifully easy at low levels too. You already repeatedly ignored the fact that because of the current math there are a lot of almost unwinable encounters out there that include an n+6 monster or an n+3 solo. you have no answer for this other than to cry that the encounter design is flawed. which is your argument for mostly everything "it doesn't match/support my position, therefore the designer is stupid or the rule is flawed/broken"

The stuff I've seen from people who appeared to _actually_ be playing the game without trying to break it were a lot fewer and far between and ran the gamut.

great point.

Assuming they have equal enhancement bonuses and they both increase strenght when possible and that neither take paragon paths boosting attack (all reasonable assumptions) then this diffference in attacks will never exceed +3.

which is already problematic but not broken.

If the expertise feat is introduced to the game and the optimizer (B) takes it then at level 25 this attack difference will be +6, instead of +3.

which really is the point of this thread. Someone will take this making it mandatory for everyone to take it.

If you want to get non-theoretical, lead the attack is a warlord daily 1 that, if it hits, can radically change the expected outcome of a solo encounter. I've seen it happen many times (and I weep for my poor solos ).

hardly broken. almost every level 1 daily has encounter changing possibilities. sphere and armor of ag "win" a lot more encounters than lead the attack. Admittedly it's awesome if it hits if you're facing a solo. How often is that? If 20% of encounters are solo's it's awesome about 10% of the time. My experience is that encounters are about 10% solos.

Granted, that's just one power, and it's a daily, and it has to hit first, and it's really only good against solos and tough elites... but it's level 1. If there's crazy stuff like that at level 1, I have no problem believing that there is crazier stuff by level 30.

-- 77IM

But there's crazier stuff for the monsters too.

Ok, I went and made a hard encounter for a level 22 party (it's a level 25 encounter 35,500 exp). There aren't a lot of choices yet in the standard monster so thematically I wouldn't use this encounter as is, I would modify the creatures to fit more elegantly together (i.e. make them all fire creatures instead of three somewhat disparate groups.) but concentrate on the stats/abilities not the theme issue.
Doresain, the Ghoul King Level 27 Elite Skirmisher (22,000 exp)
Fire Archon Ash Disciple Level 20 Artillery x 3 (8400 exp 2800 each)
Earthwind Ravager Level 23 controller (5100 exp)
so we have an L+5 BBEG, an L+1 controller and 3 L-2 artillery, not exactly terrifying encounter wise, there's a template that calls for 3 N+2's and 2 N+4's on page 59 of the dmg so this seems right inline with the design concept.

lets take a look at how their synergies might compile and you can decide if epic is too easy...
keep in mind an average level 22 defense value for pc's is in the 36-37 AC 30-33 for NAD's range. ATT values will likely be in the +22 range +25 vs AC.
First if all the creatures are fire creatures, the 3 artillery have teleport 20 as a move action as long as they end up within 3 of another fire creature. Makes pinning them down pretty tough. They can run the party melee types around in circles. Doresain has a std action that lets him basically run through the entire party (at least 4-5 targets) making a +30 vs AC attack that inflicts slow sv ends (this should hit 3-4 pc's) and it's rechargeable. It does 15 avg dmg. he can also teleport 12 and is speed 8 so even without the slow effects it's difficult to pin these guys down. his defenses are very formidable all in the 41 to 43 range except will38. His normal attacks are not particularly powerful but he has 500+ HP and the party will have trouble hitting him. He can recharge the frenzy attack and until then he will still melee pretty successfully with a +32 vs AC attack that does weak damage but 10 ongoing.

Meanwhile the ravager (firewind ravager after modifications) has a ranged 5 attack that is sustain minor and hits at +26 vs fort. This is an at will that once it hits will lock down one pc with immobilize for the price of the ravagers minor. It does 4d8 on the attack and 2d8 on the minor with no attack roll and no save to escape. If this is dropped on a melee focused pc the only way to get him out is via teleport or pushing the ravager beyond 5 squares (he'll then try and hit him again and lock him down some more) He's also got a rechargeable close blast 3 that inflicts stun and a respectable 26 avg dmg and his regular attack is a +26 vs fort reach two attack that does 19. he has 200+hps. The artillery while having the lowest chance to hit (will benefit from creatures being stunned for ca) are very hard to catch and hurt. Their range coupled with speed 8 and teleport 20 will allow them to almost invariably choose the range at which the combat takes place. They have lots of ongoing damage effects and bursts and blasts which inflict ongoing 5 or 10 fire or blindness. They all have resistances and immunities and only doresian has a vulnerability which I would likely switch to cold instead of radiant when I changed the flavor.

I find it hard to believe a decent dm can't challenge epic characters. I would love to hear from a DM who used this encounter vs 5 level 22 pc's and let me know how it works.

If parties aren't challenged at epic I truly suspect a lot of that has to do with encounter design and poor DM'ing.

 

[KarinsDad]

But there's crazier stuff for the monsters too.

Ok, I went and made a hard encounter for a level 22 party (it's a level 25 encounter 35,500 exp). There aren't a lot of choices yet in the standard monster so thematically I wouldn't use this encounter as is, I would modify the creatures to fit more elegantly together (i.e. make them all fire creatures instead of three somewhat disparate groups.) but concentrate on the stats/abilities not the theme issue.
Doresain, the Ghoul King Level 27 Elite Skirmisher (22,000 exp)
Fire Archon Ash Disciple Level 20 Artillery x 3 (8400 exp 2800 each)
Earthwind Ravager Level 23 controller (5100 exp)
so we have an L+5 BBEG, an L+1 controller and 3 L-2 artillery, not exactly terrifying encounter wise, there's a template that calls for 3 N+2's and 2 N+4's on page 59 of the dmg so this seems right inline with the design concept.

lets take a look at how their synergies might compile and you can decide if epic is too easy...
keep in mind an average level 22 defense value for pc's is in the 36-37 AC 30-33 for NAD's range. ATT values will likely be in the +22 range +25 vs AC.
First if all the creatures are fire creatures, the 3 artillery have teleport 20 as a move action as long as they end up within 3 of another fire creature. Makes pinning them down pretty tough. They can run the party melee types around in circles. Doresain has a std action that lets him basically run through the entire party (at least 4-5 targets) making a +30 vs AC attack that inflicts slow sv ends (this should hit 3-4 pc's) and it's rechargeable. It does 15 avg dmg. he can also teleport 12 and is speed 8 so even without the slow effects it's difficult to pin these guys down. his defenses are very formidable all in the 41 to 43 range except will38. His normal attacks are not particularly powerful but he has 500+ HP and the party will have trouble hitting him. He can recharge the frenzy attack and until then he will still melee pretty successfully with a +32 vs AC attack that does weak damage but 10 ongoing.

Meanwhile the ravager (firewind ravager after modifications) has a ranged 5 attack that is sustain minor and hits at +26 vs fort. This is an at will that once it hits will lock down one pc with immobilize for the price of the ravagers minor. It does 4d8 on the attack and 2d8 on the minor with no attack roll and no save to escape. If this is dropped on a melee focused pc the only way to get him out is via teleport or pushing the ravager beyond 5 squares (he'll then try and hit him again and lock him down some more) He's also got a rechargeable close blast 3 that inflicts stun and a respectable 26 avg dmg and his regular attack is a +26 vs fort reach two attack that does 19. he has 200+hps. The artillery while having the lowest chance to hit (will benefit from creatures being stunned for ca) are very hard to catch and hurt. Their range coupled with speed 8 and teleport 20 will allow them to almost invariably choose the range at which the combat takes place. They have lots of ongoing damage effects and bursts and blasts which inflict ongoing 5 or 10 fire or blindness. They all have resistances and immunities and only doresian has a vulnerability which I would likely switch to cold instead of radiant when I changed the flavor.

I find it hard to believe a decent dm can't challenge epic characters. I would love to hear from a DM who used this encounter vs 5 level 22 pc's and let me know how it works.

If parties aren't challenged at epic I truly suspect a lot of that has to do with encounter design and poor DM'ing.

I'm not seeing it.

Doresain's Ravenous Frenzy does 14.5 points of damage and slows the hit PCs and recharges on a 6. Not game breaking. It's the equivalent of a minor area effect at that level where PCs have >140 hit points and heals out the ying yang. The slow effect is annoying, but PCs that use weapons can still Charge 4 squares when slowed or even use ranged attacks. The heaviest XP monster in the group (more than 60%) does very little damage and very little control. It just has high defenses and hit points, so the PCs save him for last.

The Ravager is the damage and control threat (which a Monster Knowledge check should ascertain). He only has 219 hit points. Concentrated fire on him for about 3 rounds or so by 3 or 4 PCs should take him out (the opposite does not work for the monsters since the PCs should have many different ways to heal).

Follow that up by wiping out the Disciples. Easy to hit, low hit points.

Plus, your entire assumption here is a large space so that the Ash Disciples can use their area effects from longer range. That just means that the PCs can spread out so that few of them are hit in any given area effect.

This is not super easy, but it's not overwhelming either. Players could concentrate on the Doresain right away, but typically action economy is more important than taking out the BBEG right away.

We are not gaming this weekend, but one of the gamers is still coming over. Maybe I'll give him 5 22nd level PCs and see how it works out.

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

I'm not seeing it.

It might get very grindy because of high defenses and low dmg. But I think the pc's will struggle.

We are not gaming this weekend, but one of the gamers is still coming over. Maybe I'll give him 5 22nd level PCs and see how it works out.

I would love to know how it turns out. One player with 5 pc's is much more effective than 5 with 1 because of the coordination factor but it's still a very interesting scenario.

Doresain's Ravenous Frenzy does 14.5 points of damage and slows the hit PCs and recharges on a 6. Not game breaking. It's the equivalent of a minor area effect at that level where PCs have >140 hit points and heals out the ying yang. The slow effect is annoying, but PCs that use weapons can still Charge 4 squares when slowed or even use ranged attacks. The heaviest XP monster in the group (more than 60%) does very little damage and very little control. It just has high defenses and hit points, so the PCs save him for last.

I wasn't a huge fan of his limited damage capability either but I wasn't out to totally hose the pc's I was just trying to put together something challenging. In any event his ongoing ten damage and high probability of hitting mean he'll likely do a lot of damage in small chunks. Trading him out for a pair of level 27 standard monsters might be more threatening or more interesting the sorrowsworn reaper and sorrowsworn shadow swarm are both level 27 and change the dynamic for the same exp budget. The sorrowsworn deathlord (level 28) is too powerful I think, he would be an L+7 monster and he has a pretty tough to deal with aura.

The Ravager is the damage and control threat (which a Monster Knowledge check should ascertain). He only has 219 hit points. Concentrated fire on him for about 3 rounds or so by 3 or 4 PCs should take him out (the opposite does not work for the monsters since the PCs should have many different ways to heal).

the pc's are going to spend a significant amount of time, stunned, blind, slowed. It's a lot harder to run this guy down then you think. He can totally eliminate one pc from the battle. with his whirlwind power or he can fly away. If there's difficult terrain his flight gives him an enormous advantage. He can also fly to an elevation where he can't be hit. Time is on the monsters side.

Follow that up by wiping out the Disciples. Easy to hit, low hit points.

You're missing the beauty of the teleport. If you spread out the doresian moves near one squishy and then the 3 disciples teleport to the spot and pound him. then they scatter in 4 directions while the doresian maintains contact with one or more pc's when the party tries to maintain contact with the archons they teleport back together. If the party tries to follow one of them, he teleports to the location of another. The parties healers are spread out and much of their healing is out of range. if the party bunches up, you get better value when you unload the bursts and blasts. It's a very tactical encounter and if you play the monsters to their strengths they appear to be very dangerous. Time is on the monsters side. Every round they can extend the combat makes it more likely that they recharge the frenzy attack and the ravagers burst attack. I would probably try and use a large area for the combat and open with the ravager blasting the party with the buffeting blast attack, then flying 8 squares gaining altitude 7. By extending to 3 dimensions the ravager eliminates any ranged 5 attacks (zap clerics, warlocks). the fire archons can teleport in and drop a heap of pain on the stunned and the "fire lord (doresian) can plow through them getting 2-4 hits most likely and inflicting more effects (slow). I might not use the AP as suggested but then again getting a stunned pc started on 10 ongoing is kind of nice.

Plus, your entire assumption here is a large space so that the Ash Disciples can use their area effects from longer range. That just means that the PCs can spread out so that few of them are hit in any given area effect.

spreading out is tough for pc's. They get beyond the reach of support and synergies. The archons can repeatedly teleport 20 squares. the ravager can constantly be relocating to a good spot for the archons he doesn't even have to land, he can drop down to height 3 and the archons can pop in under him and gang bang someone. melee pc's will be highly inneffective in this encounter. The one person who they can reliably get next to has very tough defenses. the other 4 can repeatedly escape them after no more than a single attack. the ravager can pin someone down almost indefinitely. If you give these monsters the opportunity to be tactical they are very potent.

This is not super easy, but it's not overwhelming either. Players could concentrate on the Doresain right away, but typically action economy is more important than taking out the BBEG right away.

I didn't mean for it to be overwhelming I meant for the pc's to be challenged. I meant for a pc or two to be knocked unconscious at a minimum and I meant for the players to walk away from the encounter saying "wow, we're lucky we didn't get killed". To me, that's the mark of an interesting encounter.

 

[KarinsDad]

It might get very grindy because of high defenses and low dmg. But I think the pc's will struggle.

Maybe.

I would love to know how it turns out. One player with 5 pc's is much more effective than 5 with 1 because of the coordination factor but it's still a very interesting scenario.

It might be for people who are really into the game like many of the people on this board, but the guy (who I've Emailed about this) who might come over is an average Joe. He is more interested in character flavor and concept than powers. He doesn't post on the forums, rarely reads them, has only played a 4E Paladin to level 7 and a 4E Rogue to level 1. He's as far away from a tactician and a powergamer and a 4E expert as one gets at a table. If we do it, this encounter will probably take 3 hours or more, just because of him looking up what to do for each PC each round.

I didn't mean for it to be overwhelming I meant for the pc's to be challenged. I meant for a pc or two to be knocked unconscious at a minimum and I meant for the players to walk away from the encounter saying "wow, we're lucky we didn't get killed". To me, that's the mark of an interesting encounter.

If he agrees to do it, we'll see.