So, about Expertise...

I feel a little bit sorry for those who's priorities in play are rigid such that they feel forced to take it and feel it's a feat tax. If that ruins/reduces their fun, but somehow doesn't for others, I'd sugggest they examine the variable-- themselves and their priorities.

You feel sorry for others for being annoyed that WotC did not fix the math, but merely bandaged it with a virtually must take feat (assuming people play using RAW)?

Everyone is allowed their own priorities. Just because they are different than yours does not make their priorities less valid. Fun is fun and everyone is entitled to their own idea of fun. I don't consider it fun to have to take a feat to compensate for the math. To me, a feat should be fun because it is cool, not because several of the players at the table think they have to take it, just to stay competitive. That's not fun, that's annoying (or as you put it, a feat tax).

If WotC would have worked harder on the math from day one or would be better about writing good errata, that feat would not be needed or in PHB II.
 

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If WotC would have worked harder on the math from day one or would be better about writing good errata, that feat would not be needed or in PHB II.

It isn't like they are recalling your Ford Escort for failing brakes! It is a game made by real human being. 100% perfection is an unreasonable expectation even in things that actually matter like medicine, food safety and car brakes. In a role playing game rule-set you just have to go with it and be happy that further expansions, errata and the DDI (not to mention Dm fiat) are available to fix problems.

We muddled through rules that were sometimes (usually) inexplicable in 1e and 2e. 2e Powers were overpowered to the point of absurdity. In its quest for rule unity, expansion of 3e created so many loopholes it required a deft Dm hand to keep things in order.

A swimg of +/- 1 has got you that wound up? Really?
 

A swimg of +/- 1 has got you that wound up? Really?

No, not wound up at all. I was merely replying that using a feat to fix a math bug is not a good way to solve it.

Errors in the game mechanics should be fixed with errata. Errata that than makes it into the Character Builder so that the problem is automatically fixed for everyone.

They didn't fix the math errors with Skill Challenges with a feat, they should not do so here (course, their fix for Skill Challenges is not that great either).
 

I agree with you. I will be giving everyone the expertise feat of their choice for free since a feat everyone will take means effectively a loss of a feat.
 

You feel sorry for others for being annoyed that WotC did not fix the math, but merely bandaged it with a virtually must take feat (assuming people play using RAW)?

I'm one of the minority here who doesn't see the need for a patch to the math and believes that the game currently works fine and situational modifiers to hit can fully compensate for the scaling difference between monsters defenses and PC to-hit bonuses.

Everyone is allowed their own priorities. Just because they are different than yours does not make their priorities less valid. Fun is fun and everyone is entitled to their own idea of fun.
Absolutely. And when their priorities reduce their enjoyment of the game, they can choose to re-evaluate them or not. Or house rule what's bothering them. It's a choice based on their priorities.

I don't consider it fun to have to take a feat to compensate for the math. To me, a feat should be fun because it is cool, not because several of the players at the table think they have to take it, just to stay competitive. That's not fun, that's annoying (or as you put it, a feat tax).
I've already expressed my disagreement that there really is a math problem. I'm willing to accept that the designers think there is, but the game has worked for me (both published modules and my own stuff) since it's been published.

I think the "staying competitive" thing is also a matter of player priorities. Right now players can choose to start with a 16 in their primary attack stat and not fail to pull their weight next to the rogue with the 18 (or even 20) dex who uses a dagger to attack reflex defense as an at-will. They can blast away with a +3 at first level while the rogue gets a +8/9 against the same defense and not be failing to pull their own weight. An 18 in their stat would be better ofcourse, but people make 16s work.

For some people though, 16 isn't good enough and they prioritize the extra combat effectiveness such that they always take an 18-20 at level 1. Players should feel free to take the stats and feats that give them a chance to hit that satisfies them (and some could argue that party optimization means satisfying your fellow player's demands for your character as well, but that's a larger social contract issue).

If the person then feels they have to burn a feat on expertise in an attempt to keep up with something like the rogue, they can. Feats are chosen-- no one has a gun to anyone's head. The feat tax is a lot like the lottery-- you have to choose to pay it. And everyone makes that choice based on their priorities and their own situation. If it ruins the fun, then is it really worth it? And if someone with a higher bonus ruins the fun for a given player, then that player has given away control over their own enjoyment.

One area where I completely agree with you is that feats should let you do cool stuff and a bonus to hit is less cool than what a lot of other feats already do. It is certainly a less interesting choice. Once again, I think it comes back to priorities. How much do value a different interesting feat choice over a bonus to hit?

Apparently for a lot of people, it's agonizingly close. Interesting is valued highly and a +1 to hit is valued highly as well (apparently slightly more so and people talk about being forced to pay a feat tax). If your priorities are such that the expertise feats force you to make an agonizing choice where you dislike both options, talk to your group about a house rule.

I'm also willing to concede that if such an agonizing decision is foisted upon as many people as represenative of the participants in the thread, then WotC made a bad move in terms of pleasing their target audience. I suspect, however, that most people won't be so torn.

If WotC would have worked harder on the math from day one or would be better about writing good errata, that feat would not be needed or in PHB II.
That's certainly a possibility. Had PHB2 or WotC's website had an errata simply saying that all characters get a +1 to hit at levels 5, 15 and 25, I'd have been like "okay... I guess." One thing I like about the expertise feats is that it allows those who feel they're not hitting enough to address it but doesn't force everyone to take it*. If someone feels forced to take something that is by definition something you have to choose (ie a feat), theres another dynamic at play.

*EDIT - just wanted to say that I understand the position that no one should have to take a feat if the feat is actually a math patch but I disagree with the idea that everyone should get a +1 to hit regardless of how they currently evaluate their contribution to the game. I think a house rule that gets rid of expertise is perfectly fine, but like the expertise feat approach better as it allows different players in the same group to decide if they want the bonus or not.
 
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I'm one of the minority here who doesn't see the need for a patch to the math and believes that the game currently works fine and situational modifiers to hit can fully compensate for the scaling difference between monsters defenses and PC to-hit bonuses.

I believed as you do until I noticed how many higher level monsters either decrease the chance for the PCs to hit, or increase the defenses of themselves or allies.

Given a completely homogenous system, I would agree with you (and in fact, I originally did). But the system is not homogenous. As one gains levels, it's not just that the PCs gain synergies to hit and lose bonus to hit, so that's almost a wash (not quite though). Many of the monsters gain synergies as well (almost always +2 to defense or -2 for the PCs to hit when it occurs), but they do not lose bonus to defenses.

So, the math is obvious. +4 for stat increases +6 for magic items and +15 for level is 4 less than +29 for level. Yes, some PCs can take both Demi-god and Kensai and make that 2 less, but not all players will make those choices for their PC.

In my 22nd level experiment last Saturday, it became obvious that for something even as simple as Lance of Faith, if the Cleric almost never hits, the Cleric almost never gives a synergy bonus. Many synergy bonuses in the game system require that a PC hit with a given attack before the bonus is given. At higher levels, the frequency of those types of synergies decrease.

Catch 22. The PCs cannot hit because they cannot gain the bonus because they cannot hit to give the bonus.
 

I'm one of the minority here who doesn't see the need for a patch to the math and believes that the game currently works fine and situational modifiers to hit can fully compensate for the scaling difference between monsters defenses and PC to-hit bonuses.
This is a reasonable opinion. Are you also of the opinion that Expertise as written is a fair and balanced feat? If so, please justify in light of the fact that anything comparable is either highly limited in application (Action Surge), or both limited in application and weaker (Blade Opportunist, Nimble Blade, Back to the Wall, etc.).

t~
 

This is a reasonable opinion. Are you also of the opinion that Expertise as written is a fair and balanced feat? If so, please justify in light of the fact that anything comparable is either highly limited in application (Action Surge), or both limited in application and weaker (Blade Opportunist, Nimble Blade, Back to the Wall, etc.).

t~

Unlike epic destinies or paragon paths, feats don't just have to be balanced against each other. There can be feats that are better than other feats because you are still limited in how many times you can take the same feat.

Since all those "lesser" feats stack with Expertise ... they just mean they will be picked up after someone grabs expertise first. If Expertise was fair and balanced, they still couldn't make other feats that were just as good as it unless those feats were an either/or choice. Regardless of if Expertise is balanced ... two stacking versions would definitely be unbalanced.

So, at best, "there can only be one", such feat. Is it the best feat out of the various bonuses to hit feat? Yes. However, a feat that everyone takes is not as bad as an epic destiny or paragon path that everyone needs to take or class needs to take. By not needing to be a fighter or a rogue, a kensai, or a demi-god just to get some bonuses, the feat eats up a feat slot and opens up options for paragon paths and epic destinies that don't need to focus on finding the way to squeeze every +1 bonus they can find.
 

The cool part is, that if feats don't need to be balanced against each other, some day you might be able to throw away _all_ the old feats to embrace all the new feats.

Maybe for feats extreme power creep is a feat-ure?
 

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