So, Hackmaster Basic?

[Matrix Sorcica]

Pros

Fast paced combat (which by the way may seem clunky but plays better, faster and easier than it may read)
shield use and shield breakage (very fun, somewhat realistic and makes shields useful)
Knockbacks
Spell points
Count up initiative system, which has ruined most turned based games for me.
Very heoric! Fights are awesome and can often go bad or good in unexpected ways.
trauma checks.

All good stuff

A game of touch choices. You generally have to sacrifice something to be good at something. You will not have 4 16+ stats, you will not be specialized to +3 in your weapon and be awesome at all of your skills at the same time, you will be forced to choose what is important to your PC.

So your character becomes a one trick pony?
See, I dislike games where you have to focus on one thing, or pay the same skill/feat tax on every single skill/weapon type. Fx weapon focus and specilization in 3.5. As soon as you've paid the tax, you will stick to it for the rest of the campaign. The same with skills.

Also, why does a character have to develop a +1 in all aspects of weapon use, before being able to get a +2? Why not allow for greater diversity. As it is now, is only the order of your picks, that create a (diminuative) difference.
Don't like

Cons (oddly enough most of these are because this is the basic version of the game)

I will add some more below

HMB is rules-lite.

I'd hate to see what you consider rules heavy!

Do you mean to say that since it is a basic game, "substance" is light, as in there's only a few things from the full game to chose from? I agree with that.

Overall HMB is fantastic game. My advice if you are interested is to try it out with an experienced GM. The reason I say this is because the rules sometimes seem clunky or complicated but in actual play (once you get them down) they are not at all. It is a very, very good system.

A system that seems clunky and complicated in play, probably is. Especially if an experienced GM is recommended (when is one considered experienced, btw?).


Another thing that's very old school is that sometimes you want to roll high, sometimes you want to roll low. For someone coming from games with unified resolution mechanics, this can require getting some used to.


All this said, I still interested in the game. I just wish they would tell us when the complete game will be released. Or I will move to other systems (that always happen to me).

 

[KJSEvans]

All good stuff


So your character becomes a one trick pony?
See, I dislike games where you have to focus on one thing, or pay the same skill/feat tax on every single skill/weapon type. Fx weapon focus and specilization in 3.5. As soon as you've paid the tax, you will stick to it for the rest of the campaign. The same with skills.

Not a one trick pony, no. But your character is likely to be good at using ONE weapon in particular. The game is intended to be as realistic as a setting with dungeons and dragons can be - thus, you can be a jack of all trades, but you will be a master of none. (Alternatively, sooner or later you'll probably come across a very powerful weapon that isn't in your focus and may want to switch to that.)

Also, why does a character have to develop a +1 in all aspects of weapon use, before being able to get a +2? Why not allow for greater diversity. As it is now, is only the order of your picks, that create a (diminuative) difference.
Don't like

Again, it's the focus on reality. To become a master at a weapon, you can't ignore several aspects in order to focus on one. However, there are some classes - the ranger, for instance, I think - that allows you to focus on only a couple of aspects of specialization while ignoring the others. (I could be misremembering that, though.)

I'd hate to see what you consider rules heavy!

Do you mean to say that since it is a basic game, "substance" is light, as in there's only a few things from the full game to chose from? I agree with that.

It's rules lite in the sense that there aren't rules for fatigue and encumbrance and it's likely we'll see expanded rules on things like honor and skills.

A system that seems clunky and complicated in play, probably is. Especially if an experienced GM is recommended (when is one considered experienced, btw?).

Having played - not run, but played - the game a few times makes you experienced. The only reason I suggest an experienced GM is because people who are trapped in turns-based roleplay need a bit of time to wrap their heads around the kind of free movements/actions that you have in a count up system like HMb. Alternatively, memorizing the essential combat rules and running without having ever played before would also work. (There really aren't that many - you could fit them on an index card.)

All this said, I still interested in the game. I just wish they would tell us when the complete game will be released. Or I will move to other systems (that always happen to me).

Thankfully, it's possible to move on and then come back. Just remember - KenzerCo is a company with two full-time employees and a total of half a dozen people working on the development of the system. They are trying to make a game that is unlike any other, and that takes time. However, Jolly has begun working on the formatting of the Player's Handbook, the HoB should hit our shores by May, and the GMG is likely to come out at around this time in 2012. Wouldn't it be worse, though, for them to give you a specific time only for them to have to change it dramatically based on delays? Better this way, imo.

 

[triqui]

I actually find the game to be surprisingly easy to play. It takes about 45 minutes to an hour to create a character the first time, but once you know what you are doing, character gen is about a 20 to 30 minute affair. (Honestly - you roll up your stats, pick your race, figure out your class, and start divying up your Build Points between talents, proficiencies, and skills. How is that hard to do?)

Never tried the game, but the answer to the bold part is the underlined part.

 

[KJSEvans]

Never tried the game, but the answer to the bold part is the underlined part.

It would take significantly less time if you didn't bother to stop and read about the skills that you're buying...

 

[lejanius]

I think KJSEvans replied to the points I was going to reply too and with similar answers.

I didn't do the best job articulating my thoughts when I posted my pros and cons list.

One clarification, when I say rules-lite I think what i meant that there will be situations the rules don't cover and you will be forced to come up with rules.

Also, I know the word clunky keeps getting tossed around but the game is certainly not clunky. It appears so but within an hour or two of the first session I ever ran we had all the combat rules down pat. Session #2 was about as smooth as my current sessions and I have played the game since it came out. I know this sounds like it doesn't make sense but the game plays very smooth and fast, despite how it reads.

 

[Falstaff]

I think KJSEvans replied to the points I was going to reply too and with similar answers.

I didn't do the best job articulating my thoughts when I posted my pros and cons list.

One clarification, when I say rules-lite I think what i meant that there will be situations the rules don't cover and you will be forced to come up with rules.

Also, I know the word clunky keeps getting tossed around but the game is certainly not clunky. It appears so but within an hour or two of the first session I ever ran we had all the combat rules down pat. Session #2 was about as smooth as my current sessions and I have played the game since it came out. I know this sounds like it doesn't make sense but the game plays very smooth and fast, despite how it reads.

Very true. HackMaster's combat system is the most intuitive and easy to adjudicate I've ever run simply because it uses real world time frames instead of vague "rounds" and "turns".

 

[Greylond]

Yea, that's the biggest thing that I've found that people have understanding.

The concept that there is No "Round/Turn/Whatever" and that action is continuous.

 

[Treebore]

Hackmaster Basic is definitely not for everyone. When I ran my 7 month long weekly game I had an attrition rate of probably 50%. Fortunately I was replacing players with players faster than I was losing them.

Why did they quit?

They found the second by second combat too hard to keep track of. They didn't like how skill checks could be opposed or unopposed. They didn't like their attack rolls being apposed by defense rolls, they didn't like having to decide on how to spend their Build Points when they leveled up, buy weapon specializations and largely ignore skills, or build up skills and ignore specializations? Especially fighters, they can't do both very well, and mages certainly can't. But skills are more important than weapon specializations for mages, so that works out. The same could be said of fighters, but being able to build up skills like Observation, Listen, and Resist Persuasion, not to mention Intimidation and other skills useful to fighters and possible character concepts, it can get pretty frustrating.

So this game is most definitely not for everyone. However if you try it out, you may end up loving it. Trying it out is the only good way to find out.

So sit down and play it a few times, you may end up not liking it, but at the very least you will go away with a few good ideas to adapt to your other RPG's. Then again, you may end up loving how it all comes together in comparison to other RPG's and become a life long fan.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

So I read some of the HMB book again. And I'm starting to warm up.

How does the game handle the 10 minute work day (spell points seem awfully low) and the heal-bot necessary aspect of the cleric? Things that 4E put an end to and even PF tries to address.


Also, I want the full game, if I'm to play this. Any news on the PHB and the rest of the core books?

Edit: A thousand posts!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KJSEvans]

So I read some of the HMB book again. And I'm starting to warm up.

How does the game handle the 10 minute work day (spell points seem awfully low) and the heal-bot necessary aspect of the cleric? Things that 4E put an end to and even PF tries to address.


Also, I want the full gane, if I'm to play this. Any news on the PHB and the rest of the core books?

So far in our game, the mage has been an insanely valuable asset - primarily because he uses Deep Slumber very effectively. I believe he's at Level 6 or 7 ... he has no shortage of spell points and has basically turned several insane encounters into several easy ones.

Point of fact, I know he feels that the encounters have been TOO easy because the sleep spell is too powerful (while he feels that the other spells are comparatively too weak). However, in terms of burning through his SP's... he's only done it once since I started playing, and it was an extremely exciting/dramatic/scary moment, because we were in a volcano/dungeon and our opponents were wearing us down. I found that his exhaustion of SPs really made that section of the adventure extremely, well, awesome.

(He was still able to use some scrolls and spells, even without his SPs, that compensated for it without any big issues.)

If you are expecting to use a cleric as a heal bot, on the other hand, you will be disappointed. Healing - especially low level healing - is limited in HMb. A cleric isn't particularly effective in that regard until he hits Level 3. To compensate, the cleric in my campaign also serves as a fighter... and he's probably the best fighter the group has. (He's a dwarf with a ridiculous CON - I believe he had something like 36 hit points at level 1, which is insane).

In fact, that's basically the short answer to your question - anybody in the game can be a dangerous melee combatant if they take the right talents. Clerics and mages do not need to be the skinny weaklings that they were in older versions of D&D, and while mages aren't permitted to wear even light armor, they can use a shield and any weapon. (My advice: if you happen to roll up a PC with high Wis and Dex, and choose Mage, make him a halfling and give him a shield. The little bugger will be almost impossible to hit.)