D&D 5E So.... hide?

[Uller]

The phrase 'you can't hide when belng observed' means what it does in the plain English meaning of the phrase, not in a DnD game mechanic sense.

As in: if you and I were in a room together and I watch you climb into a box, you are not (and can not) be hidden from me. I know exactly where you are.

Again...combat is not hide and seek. If you and I are the only people in the room you would be correct. But now put Bob the well trained fighter in the room. Bob has an ax. Bob wants to cut you into little pieces. There is a reasonable chance you will stop focusing on the cowardly little guy that ducked behind cover and focus on the more obvious threat. A well trained rogue knows how to take advantage of that and turn it into a more deadly attack. Once the rogue pops out and makes it clear he is also a big threat you might focus a bit more on what he is doing giving him disadvantage or preventing him from repeating his little stunt unless he gets clever..this is why we have DMs to look at the situation and make sense of it.

 

[Flamestrike]

Again...combat is not hide and seek. If you and I are the only people in the room you would be correct. But now put Bob the well trained fighter in the room. Bob has an ax. Bob wants to cut you into little pieces. There is a reasonable chance you will stop focusing on the cowardly little guy that ducked behind cover and focus on the more obvious threat. A well trained rogue knows how to take advantage of that and turn it into a more deadly attack. Once the rogue pops out and makes it clear he is also a big threat you might focus a bit more on what he is doing giving him disadvantage or preventing him from repeating his little stunt unless he gets clever..this is why we have DMs to look at the situation and make sense of it.

I am most certainly not ignoring the guy that just shot me in the neck with a crossbow for xd6 sneak attack damage, any more than I am ignoring the dude with the axe.

I'm well aware he's there once he shoots me.

In some circumstances then yeah fine. A massive swirling melee when common sense dictates that not everyone is noticing everything for example. But in most cases in DnD combats it is assumed that combatants are aware of what's going on around them.

From a gamist perspective, you're allowing a bonus action for rogue 2 to grant advantage every round. It's too strong (in addition to being unrealistic).

As written, halfling rogues get guaranteed advantage and sneak attack on the 1st round of virtually every combat (in addition to not being able to be targeted with any attacks till they reveal themselves). Tack on the skulker feat and they can stay hidden and untouchable till they actually hit with that first ambush from hiding.

As written it's strong and makes sense.

It's your table though so whatever makes sense to you.

 

[lall]

Once in the box, Bill could have slipped down the trap door underneath the box or teleported away. He's not necessarily still there. Taking away Bill's advantage is easy if feats are allowed. Just take Alert.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

I would recommend that you stop laying down 'realism' as a roadblock to someone's class/racial abilities. Other classes get abilities that allow them to do fantastic, unrealistic things like teleport between shadows, turn into animals, manipulate probability and the like. I understand that there are times it makes sense to impose a penalty as a DM, but it should be the exception, not the rule.

As an aside, combat is a swirling maelstrom of confusion. Soldiers are taught methods to break tunnel vision and target fixation but it's easy to focus on the nearest threat and be completely unaware of things you might normally notice. Combat can heighten your awareness, but generally your senses are honed in on the closest and most obvious threat.

 

[fjw70]

P

Why? How does it provide that exception? Reading the single sentence on page 28, PHB,

Naturally Stealthy: You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.

Where in that sentence does it allow the halfling to hide from a foe who already sees him? I'm not trying to be obtuse, and I'm not trying to nerf this rogue. I'm just trying to maintain minimum believability.

It's much like the box trick someone cited above. To allow that strains my ability to suspend disbelief. Yes, I know that wizards can bend the fabric of reality, and yes, I know that a halfling rogue should be super ultra slick fast stealthy, but come on!

Another example I've used is, what if you and I were standing in a parking lot in full view of each other. I walk over to a car and duck down behind it. Am I out of sight? Yes. Do I get cover? Yes. Am I hidden? No.

Furthermore, in that sidebar on page 177 (thanks again for the correction), there's that sentence concerning invisibility.

An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide.

That, to me, implies that you must be unseen in the first place in order to make a hide attempt.

I've read some good arguments pro and con in this thread, as well as some compromises. It sounds like I'll just have to DM rule it. I'll probably err on the side of the player, but I sure wish there was some official ruling on this that we could just cite and move on one way or the other.

The halfling ability only works if (1) it allows the halfling to be unseen when concealed by an ally or (2) it provides an exception to the unseen criteria. Since not attempting the hide action or failing the hide roll doesn't confer any special status then (2) must be the correct interpretation.

With your car analogy you seem to misunderstand what hide means in 5e. If you duck behind the car and fail a hide check (or not make one) then the enemy can't see you (until they move to a position that makes you be seen) but can still possibly hear you or see dust you kicked up or whatever. Making a successful hide check means he can't be certain you are behind the car. He saw you go behind there but he can't hear you anymore or see any signs you are there. He must do something yo verify that you are there.

 

[Uller]

I can't think of any combat I've been involved in (in real life...infantry, US Army) or in a game that wasn't a swiriling confusion.

Our last 4 fights involved on average 22 combatants. In near darkness. Between the din of weapons clashing, the screams of the soon to be dead, the weird shadows cast by light spells interacting with terrain, furniture and the combatants themselves and the flash of lightning bolt or fireball spells...yeah...I think a professional sneak with near supernatural ability will have an easy time of it. YMMV.

Next time our rogue attempts to hide in a well lit room with only one obvious hiding place while her enemies calmly observe her I'm sure I'll tell her she can't. But fortunately for her we dont have battles that are like that.

 

[fjw70]

Yes they do. The hidden creature isn't revealed until it makes its attack. See the section on attacking from hiding in the PHB.

Once the attack is made THEN the hidden creature is resolved (hit or miss). If the hidden creature had the skulker feat, and it misses, it isn't noticed and can attempt to hide again.

But when he pops out of the box he isn't hiding anymore. He has moved to a position in which he can be seen therefore is no longer hidden (unless the DM determines that the enemies are sufficiently distracted).

Attacking from a hidden position are things like shooting for the shadows or from behind bushes. If you have to move out from behind a barrier then the DM must rule that the enemy is sufficiently distracted.

 

[fjw70]

Once in the box, Bill could have slipped down the trap door underneath the box or teleported away. He's not necessarily still there. Taking away Bill's advantage is easy if feats are allowed. Just take Alert.

This is a key point many are missing. When you climb in a box and don't attempt to hide then the enemy knows you are still there because they can hear you, see the box move, etc. If you successfully hide then they do not know if you are still in the box. You could have went through a trap door or teleported and they need to do something to verify you are there. The enemy can still shoot at you in the box (with disadvantage since you can't be seen) but they are just guessing your location.

If it is a big box that takes up several 5' spaces then they have to guess which space you are in before attacking. If you aren't hidden in the box they still get disadvantage on the attack but don't have to guess which space you are in.

 

[Flamestrike]

But when he pops out of the box he isn't hiding anymore. He has moved to a position in which he can be seen therefore is no longer hidden (unless the DM determines that the enemies are sufficiently distracted).

Attacking from a hidden position are things like shooting for the shadows or from behind bushes. If you have to move out from behind a barrier then the DM must rule that the enemy is sufficiently distracted.

That's not how it works. But feel free to run it how you want.

 

[weldon]

From a gamist perspective, you're allowing a bonus action for rogue 2 to grant advantage every round. It's too strong (in addition to being unrealistic).

As written, halfling rogues get guaranteed advantage and sneak attack on the 1st round of virtually every combat (in addition to not being able to be targeted with any attacks till they reveal themselves). Tack on the skulker feat and they can stay hidden and untouchable till they actually hit with that first ambush from hiding.

The rogue 2 still has to succeed on their hide check from the previous round. It's not automatic. Advantage is a pretty big… advantage in combat, but I don't think it makes the rogue completely OP compared to other melee classes.

How is the halfling rogue guaranteed to be hidden on the 1st round of combat? When they go before the enemy in initiative order? If they lose initiative, they certainly aren't hidden yet.