So how do you play a Sun Elf?

[Kae'Yoss]

...dislike of elves... rising...
What the crap? Racial memory now?

Racial memory? Now you're just making stuff up.

Not like Dragons have, children inheriting the knowledge of their parents. More like what is "remembered" in hostorical texts or those elders (or whatever) who are asked for advice. Like noone of us was present when the first man first lighted a fire all by himself, but most of us know how to do it.

Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given.

I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Am I overreacting or are you using thinly veiled insults?

Try visiting Evermeet or Evereska if you are a nonelf, and see how quickly the sun elves there open their arms to accept you.

As I said before, the fact that Evermeet is forbidden to other races is a bad argument for saying someone is racist.

If not, you know what? In a city about half and hour from here, there's an American millitary base. I'll just go in there, and when they throw me out by force or even shoot on me, whe have the perfect proof that Americans are racist bastards, haven't we?

I think that the key thing about a sun elf, [.....] down a peg," etc.

Hope this helps somewhat.

It helps immensely. Finally, someone who realizes that bad impressions are far deeper. That it isn't enough to call a whole race racist when 10, or 100, or even 10.000 members of that race are.

 

[Gez]

It's like calling a cat-lover racist, cause he says cats are better than dogs.

1. It can't be racism unless the cat-lover is a cat himself.
2. Being a cat-lover don't means thinking cats are better than dogs. It just means loving them. (Not even necessarily more. You can be a cat-lover and a dog-lover too. But you can't say your kin is better than the other and say you're not racist.)

"Patriotism" would be prefering their culture to the others (which is normal). But preference don't mean assumption of superiority.

Myself, I'm annoyed by two things in what I call the "melnazibonelf syndrom". The first is munchkinism (elves being better at everything), the second is racism (elves thinking they're better at everything).

One could think that the second comes from the first, but the problem is, actually, it's kinda the reverse. (Besides, any truely more enlightened civilisation would not fall to racism; for it would know it is sinking to the level of what we pretend to be above.)

As Lord Elf from ElfOnlyInn put it (© Josh Sortelli):

 

[Dark Jezter]

As I said before, the fact that Evermeet is forbidden to other races is a bad argument for saying someone is racist.

Actually, it's a perfect example of rascism.

An evil elf would have no trouble getting into Evermeet, but a good human paladin wouldn't be allowed. They are excluding people solely because of race.

If not, you know what? In a city about half and hour from here, there's an American millitary base. I'll just go in there, and when they throw me out by force or even shoot on me, whe have the perfect proof that Americans are racist bastards, haven't we?

Don't make me break out the definition of the word "rascist" again, KaeYoss.

That's a very bad example. Chances are, they wouldn't allow you onto the base even if you were an American. Military bases tend to be off limits to all non-military personel. I'm an American, and there's an Air Force Base within driving distance of where I live. I wouldn't get past the front gate because I'm not stationed at that base or a civilian consultant.

It helps immensely. Finally, someone who realizes that bad impressions are far deeper. That it isn't enough to call a whole race racist when 10, or 100, or even 10.000 members of that race are.

Frankly, KaeYoss, this is getting old. In nearly every FR suppliment that talks about Sun Elves (dating clear back to 1st edition), it describes the typical sun elf attitude as being arrogant and prejudiced against other races. I have no idea where you are getting the impression that most sun elves are kind, decent people and only a few of them are rascist. It's like saying that most drow aren't evil bastards who live in the underdark and worship Lolth, only a small minority of them are.

 

[Pyske]

Er, coming back from the tangent for a moment, a couple ideas for having a sun-elf character (and their reaction to their society):

+ Counter-culture: your character is in favor of abolishing the status quo attitudes of racial superiority. She is trying to document the "worthiness" of the other races by examining those who often become heroes in these cultures.

+ Adventuring on a Wager: your character is secretly trying to disprove someone who advocates the "worthiness" of non-Sun Elves. Doing so will bring great prestige, by eliminating such a disruptive and distasteful element from prominence at court. Of course, you would never tell them that's what you are doing... that would ruin the experiment. You just quietly send home your diaries, with a few choice incidents highlighted...

+ Savage Anthropology: Your PC simply doesn't understand how these lesser races do it, and she desperately wants to. She can see the trend of their rise in power, but how does one manage to effectively govern without the use of ages old artifacts, massively powerful enchantments, and seclusion? Isn't it difficult to get anything done with other nations constantly sending diplomats or armies or having to negaotiate new trade agreements every 50 years? It would be silly to change, but perhaps even we, in our wisdom, can learn something valuable from these noble savages.

+ Spy: The problem with the other races is they are so impetuous. One must be well-informed to make proper plans. It is your job to keep the Elven people well-informed.

None of these, played subtly enough, will disrupt a group too much. Most would work with a University background.

. . . . . . . -- Eric

 

[eris404]

Er, coming back from the tangent for a moment, a couple ideas for having a sun-elf character (and their reaction to their society):

These are great (and thanks for bringing it back on topic)!

Myself, I might go against type. Maybe the elf is a complete xenophile and is disdainful of his/her own culture. Perhaps this came about from some treatment he or she received as a child from sun elf elders or bullies. Maybe the character's only friends were human or other humanoid children and those friendships were made in secret. Maybe the elders found out and forbade and were particularly cruel about it. I could imagine the character becoming quite rebellious and "speaking out against the man" every chance s/he got.

Or maybe those childhood friends simply grew up more quickly and left him/her behind. How would that affect the character?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Not like Dragons have, children inheriting the knowledge of their parents. More like what is "remembered" in hostorical texts or those elders (or whatever) who are asked for advice. Like noone of us was present when the first man first lighted a fire all by himself, but most of us know how to do it.

Which is not what 'racial memory' means. What you refer to is commonly known as 'historical records'.

Am I overreacting or are you using thinly veiled insults?

I think he was suggesting that your argument was very poorly constructed, leaving him little to say against it that wasn't already contained within it.

1. Races in the real world certainly aren't nationalities, they tend to be groups of people who trace their heritage back to a particular location, and therefore bloodline of humanity. Usually it just ends up being 'anyone who looks different is a different race' however.

2. Races in D&D are clearly defined - elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, orcs are all seperate races. Their heritage is unknown - perhaps they are all as closely related as human races are. Regardless, if elves discriminate against dwarves for being dwarves, that's racism.

3. Your 'cats vs dogs' argument might possibly hold water if cats and dogs were classified as races in either of the settings we discuss. They're not, so it doesn't.

4. Furthermore in order for your 'cats vs dogs' argument to work, the cat lover would have to be actively discriminating. If, for instance, he couldn't stand having dogs on his property for no other reason than the fact that they're dogs, and he took specific measures against dogs to prevent them from coming on his property, and he let cats freely enter his property simply because they're cats, then he would be said to be specist.

In precisely the same way that sun elves are racist.

As I said before, the fact that Evermeet is forbidden to other races is a bad argument for saying someone is racist.

Do my eyes decieve me, or did you just say "participating in racial discrimination doesn't make someone a racist"

If not, you know what? In a city about half and hour from here, there's an American millitary base. I'll just go in there, and when they throw me out by force or even shoot on me, whe have the perfect proof that Americans are racist bastards, haven't we?

What you're seeing IS discrimination. Unfortunately for you, it's purely based on whether or not you're in the military.

I just want you to feel you're doing well.

 

[fourthmensch]

To the original poster: perhaps a better question than "how do you play a sun elf" would be "what do you want your sun elf to be like?" I realize this is stating the obvious, but sun elves in general is not your character in particular, and s/he can be any way you would like them to be. Unspeakably arrogant? Sure. Kind and forgiving? Why not. Make him a tinker, if you want, its all good.

There are plenty of ways to turn the sun elves' superiority complex into a playable personality. Long ago I played a sun elf cavalier who felt that it was his duty to go out into the world and show everyone else how great it was to be elven. His program called for the sun elves to take their natural role (leaders, of course) in bringing the goodly races together to live in harmony. Part of this, of course, was getting his arrogant bastard side under control in order to better sway/teach the other races.

They could be perfectionists, and therefore far more prone to self-criticism than racism. Make him a diplomat, able to control his racial ego. Maybe just extremely young (60-80), impulsive and with far fewer preconceptions other than a fascination with all things non-elven. Give him moon elven friends or a wild elf girlfriend that changed the way he looked at things.

The important point, IMO, is to remember that racial tendencies have little or nothing to do with individual characters.

[Edit: altered quotations]

 

[Kae'Yoss]

...

Frankly, KaeYoss, this is getting old. In nearly every FR suppliment that talks about Sun Elves (dating clear back to 1st edition), it describes the typical sun elf attitude as being arrogant and prejudiced against other races. I have no idea where you are getting the impression that most sun elves are kind, decent people and only a few of them are rascist.

I see you want to cling to your opinion that all sun elves (or the vast majority of) are racist. IMO that theory is wrong, and as long as you don't give me a (preferably current) source that states something like "the (vast) majority of sun elves are racist", I won't change that opinion.

1. It can't be racism unless the cat-lover is a cat himself.
2. Being a cat-lover don't means thinking cats are better than dogs. It just means loving them. (Not even necessarily more. You can be a cat-lover and a dog-lover too. But you can't say your kin is better than the other and say you're not racist.)

"Patriotism" would be prefering their culture to the others (which is normal). But preference don't mean assumption of superiority.

Word play. "I prefer my race/culture/nation to others" and "I think my race/culture/nation is the best there is" is more or less the same.

But patriotism/racism has always been a double standard: Some can praise their own race/culture/nation all time, waving their flat, putting their colors everywhere and refuse to get any influence from other races/cultures/nations and they call it patriotism. Others do so but eveyone calls them racists.

Myself, I'm annoyed by two things in what I call the "melnazibonelf syndrom".

It's always interesting how fast the term "nazi" will come up.

I see the other quite often: Elves are bashed no matter what. In 3.5 for example, they got nothing (or nearly nothing, they get both longsword and rapier where they got only one before - not a big deal and something that many have done anyway), while other races - especially the dwarves - got quite a good package, but you don't get people wound up because of that.

Which is not what 'racial memory' means. What you refer to is commonly known as 'historical records'.

Not just historical records. It's also oral tradition

1. Races in the real world certainly aren't nationalities, they tend to be groups of people who trace their heritage back to a particular location, and therefore bloodline of humanity. Usually it just ends up being 'anyone who looks different is a different race' however.

Human races, however you might define them, are still the same thing: Humans. They are no significant differences.

2. Races in D&D are clearly defined - elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, orcs are all seperate races. Their heritage is unknown - perhaps they are all as closely related as human races are.

Their heritage isn't unknown. Don't forget that in D&D (especially FR, which is what we talk about here), the gods are very real and take a direct interest in their worshippers. While you can debate all day about the truth behind the Adam-and-Eve story, in D&D it is not just belief that elves were first born from drops of blood shed by corellon, it's truth. And they aren't closely related at all. They are different species.

3. Your 'cats vs dogs' argument might possibly hold water if cats and dogs were classified as races in either of the settings we discuss. They're not, so it doesn't.

What are cats and dogs, if not races. If with races you mean species (Star Wars d20 uses that term, for example), cats are a species alright. As are dogs. As are elves, dwarves, halflings......

4. Furthermore in order for your 'cats vs dogs' argument to work, the cat lover would have to be actively discriminating. If, for instance, he couldn't stand having dogs on his property for no other reason than the fact that they're dogs, and he took specific measures against dogs to prevent them from coming on his property, and he let cats freely enter his property simply because they're cats, then he would be said to be specist.

There are a lot of people doing exactly that: They forbid dogs on their lawn, but don't mind about cats. I wouldn't go as far as call them speciesist, and many of them like dogs - they just not want them on their property.

Do my eyes decieve me, or did you just say "participating in racial discrimination doesn't make someone a racist"

No. But I do say that barring your homeland and retreat from the world to other races is not racist.