So I have the Martial Powers book.

The line from class feature->build is pretty straight. When powers play off of class features and are much more useful with them than without them, not taking them requires a willful disregard of your characters ability to function.

It would be like choosing 2-weapon ranger, then only taking ranged Encounter and Daily powers. I suppose that the rules don't STOP you, but why would you?

That's an absurd comparison, and you know it. Yes, a melee ranger is going to use the melee ranger powers. The same dichotomy exists for a number of other builds - Str vs Wis Clerics, Str vs Cha Paladins, Con vs Cha Warlocks. On the other hand, you have a number of builds that blend those two - I've seen paladins who use both Str and Cha, and so forth. You could probably even do the same with a Ranger - characters can focus on two ability scores, after all. I just doubt most people have any concept that encourages them to do so.

But guess what? Those are all a completely different situation than wizards choosing between implements or a rogue choosing between Artful Dodger and Brutal Scoundrel.

I played a Bugbear Rogue up to level 7. The character was dedicated to damage dealing, with a high strength and a heavy focus on Brutal Scoundrel. And yet - my most used power was Bait and Switch, designed for use for Artful Dodgers, since it was still extremely effective for the character and great for moving around combat. Most of my utility powers were movement based ones (Tumble, etc), even though mobility is supposed to be the 'domain' of the Artful Dodger.

I have a Level 3 Star Warlock in LFR, with a maxed out Constitution. His powers are split 50/50 between Star Pact and Infernal Pact. Yes, he isn't going to take any Fey Pact powers with his 10 Charisma - but there are still a variety of choices for him to make when he chooses his powers.

Guess what? Both characters, extremely effective. Often hands-down the most effective of the table, despite apparently playing builds you feel removes their "ability to function."

Heck, your comparison isn't even actually accurate for Rangers. I'm looking at their Power list, and many of their powers can be chosen for Melee or Ranged. I don't think there is a single level where they are forced into a single specific power based on build - there is almost always a choice between two powers, and sometimes more. And I imagine Martial Power will vastly expand that more.

I ran into this same argument once before regarding Fighters and the idea that their weapon choice defines what powers they take 100%. Even at the levels where different weapons gain bonuses for different powers, I still find myself considering a variety of options depending on what my characters wants out of their powers - whether they want to hit multiple enemies, or keep enemies from escaping them, or debuff their enemies, or just do the most possible damage.

Now, if your point is that a character's goals and concepts will define them utterly... well, sure. If a character wants to play a rogue designed around always having combat advantage, and only takes the powers that specifically help with that, then yes, they have a very direct path. But builds really aren't that restrictive - claiming that the choices you make at level one define 90% of the character, for the rest of their career, is completely absurd.

I mean... ok, I can see your concern. I can see why you might think the builds are so restrictive. But in practice, they very much aren't. Yes, a strength-based ranger will only have 2-3 choices of power at each level, but they aren't locked into a single choice. From the discussion given by the writers of Martial Power, while many of the powers it will add will be for the Beast path, several more will be for any rangers, so I suspect this will bring the choices up to 4-5 at each level - and more for other Martial classes. I can certainly understand being concerned about this danger, but I think 4E avoids it - I have been specifically impressed by how hard it is to choose the best power to take at any given level, even when playing multi-stat classes where my choices are already limited.

I'd be happy to provide examples, since while I get your concern, I absolutely don't see any support for it in the actual rules.
 

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To get back to this sub-thread... the fact that a feat requires the Martial power source (as we've been told some do) means it CAN'T be taken by the most militant of Paladins or melee Clerics, even though it might perfectly fit their character concept. (I do not think multiclassing changes your Power Source, though I may be wrong in that interpretation.) Many Fighter powers are perfectly useful for a Paladin, and The Math(tm) means it probably wouldn't be unbalancing to allow him to pick them.

Actually, that's incorrect. The feats in Martial will sometimes say "Any Martial Class", they don't mention power source. So, if you're a Paladin and you MC to Fighter to get more melee powers and such, you would count as a "Martial Class" for purposes of feat selection. The PHB itself says this on page 208.

A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
for paragon paths. For example, a character who
takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for the purpose
of selecting feats that have cleric as a prerequisite.
These feats can qualify you for other feats; for example,
a warlock who takes Sneak of Shadows can use the
rogue’s Sneak Attack class feature, which means that
he meets the prerequisite for the Backstabber feat.

All that Martial Power is doing is adding feats that are broader than they were before. So instead of saying "Fighter only", they say "Any Martial Class". If anything, it's actually adding more freedom to feat selection.

Personally, I think the ideal system would be to have Exploits, Spells, and Prayers, and just define which classes can pick from which -- i.e, Paladins could pick Exploits and Prayers, wizards only Spells, swordmages Spells and Exploits. Looking at the game, it seems like they were halfway down the road to Classless D&D, and then backpedaled.

I think that still wouldn't get you what you want. What's a Paladin get then? Exploits, or Prayers? He's a hybrid class, but Divine power source. If you make him Martial and give him Exploits, he'll lost the healing and Divine Challenge type stuff. If you make him Divine and give him Prayers, then he's still not going to be able to pick and choose from the Fighter powers.

Additionally, even classes from the same power source do not act the same. Just look at, again, the Martial and Divine sources. Each has a Leader, and each has a Defender. So, even though Clerics and Warlords have the same role, they have very different flavors, powers and specialties. Same with the Fighter and the Paladin. Sure, a Paladin can't swing an axe around in a Burst 1, doing damage to all surrounding enemies and knocking them prone. By the same token though, a Fighter can't teleport someone and heal them as part of the process...or take a hit on another PC's behalf.
 

While I think most 4e classes are more flexible than Lizard gives them credit for I will say that Rangers, Paladins, and Clerics pretty much require you to pick one build over the other largely due to their powers using differing ability scores as their attacking ability score.
 

Ranger seams the least typed to me...I have seen rangers put dex prime str 2nd wis 3rd, choose two weapon (for toughness) then every power choose one that has both melee and ranged options...it works out to be a great swing hitter...cleric not so much though.
 


I swear, Martial Power just makes me salivate for Arcane and Divine power.

2009 can't come fast enough.

Overall, the quality of the post-release material for 4e (Dragon, supplements) has been exceptionally good, but a lot of it is stuff which really belongs in core. (2 weapon fighter, beast ranger, diplo rogue, alchemy and a decent selection of magic items). Which makes me wonder why the core books were so stripped down; if they'd kept the same rules but used 3e's type font and page count, there would have been at least twice as much content and the game would not have come across as so limiting.
 

Overall, the quality of the post-release material for 4e (Dragon, supplements) has been exceptionally good, but a lot of it is stuff which really belongs in core. (2 weapon fighter, beast ranger, diplo rogue, alchemy and a decent selection of magic items). Which makes me wonder why the core books were so stripped down; if they'd kept the same rules but used 3e's type font and page count, there would have been at least twice as much content and the game would not have come across as so limiting.

I agree. The lack of options out of the box, as least with my group, has been one of our hardest hurdles to overcome.

The WP
 

Ranger seams the least typed to me...I have seen rangers put dex prime str 2nd wis 3rd, choose two weapon (for toughness) then every power choose one that has both melee and ranged options...it works out to be a great swing hitter...cleric not so much though.

The trick with Rangers seems to be: Forget Bows. Use Heavy Thrown weapons and be a versatile killing machine. ;)
 


I disagree. I think that the Player's Handbook as released had plenty of options. It certainly wasn't missing anything absolutely critical to play, and the amount of content available was at least as beefy as what the vast majority of other roleplaying games' initial core rulebooks offer.

Coming from the perspective of a 3.5 player, moving directly from the colossal, endless ocean of options that currently exists for that system, I can see how the brand-new 4E PHB could seem restrictive and incomplete.

But looking at the book from the perspective of a player just discovering D&D, it seems pretty rich to me.

Also, the idea that just because some race/class/character-building choice/subsystem existed in the core rules of a previous edition, that detail must be included in the core of a new edition (or else it's incomplete!) is, to my eyes, false.

It's a new game, not merely a patch over the old one. It should pay homage to what came before, and carry forward some of the spirit of its predecessors, but beyond that it shouldn't be chained too tightly to the expectations of the (apparently) outdated game that it is replacing.
 

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