So I want to make a zombie character...

[sukael]

Take a look at the Gravetouched Ghoul template in Libris Mortis--good for agile-zombie types. Ability score boosts, natural weapons, and ghoul fever and paralysis attacks linked to said natural weapons. +2 LA

 

[griff_goodbeard]

Take a look at the corpse creature template from the BoVD. Your looking for an intelligent zombie template and that's exactly what this is. There is no LA listed, but in the 3.0-->3.5 conversion it got a +2LA.

 

[Denaes]

Take a look at the Gravetouched Ghoul template in Libris Mortis--good for agile-zombie types. Ability score boosts, natural weapons, and ghoul fever and paralysis attacks linked to said natural weapons. +2 LA

I'm missing something here.

A normal Ghoul template is ECL 5 (or +3 on top of HD). The Gravetouched is +2

I don't notice anything this Gravetouched Ghoul has over a normal Ghoul to mark him as "chosen by the Ghoul Master" (or whomever it was). Honestly it looks just like a Ghoul but in template form.

I would choose him right away if not for the "Chaotic Evil" only. If it's the same as a Ghoul I can just apply it and call him a normal Ghoul and be a playable alignment. A CE undead won't fly in the game and if this "Ghoul Master" is giving Ghouls special abilities (that I don't notice) based on them being evil, the template won't work.

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

Not having acces to the books listed above, could you not do something along the lines of

Create standard character, for example, human warrior, advance him to 5th, have him die, have him raised as a zombie (you get free willed undead such as Death kights, why not a zombie). Now as a zombie, you remove your constitution, and reroll your hp's to 5th using D12's, decide what special benefits being a free willed zombie gives you, and work out a Level Adjustement wiht your GM (for arguments sake, say 2 levels), add that on to your original 5th level fighter, giving you an ECL of 7th, and then progress him onwards by class to 9th.

He would still gain skills etc as a warrior, because if hes free willed undead, hes got a brain, so he can still learn

As a zombie character, he might gain strength bonus, lose some wisdom (more likely to take risks) depending on how he died, and if he was left in that state, lose some charisma, but gain Damage reduction and maybe dexterity (yes ordinary mindless zombies are slow and clumsy, but a free willed zombie would take advantage of the mind over matter aspect of his body, and not worry about bending his body the wrong way to aovid a blow, or to hit someone with his weapon)

Special characters always need the GM's input to be fair, but using a simplistic approach and reasoned arguments can save a lot of book keeping

Feegle Out

[edit]Spelling AGAIN[/edit]

 

[FEADIN]

You have the Deathless template in the BoED, to be a "good" undead.

 

[Denaes]

But the undead writeups I saw didn't have PC template instructions. Thats why I didn't think it was 3.5.

I may be mistaken here, but no book has PC template instructions. If you want your PC to apply a template, you go through the same process as an NPC/monster, except that you apply LA instead of CR.

The link I gave you to (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm) does have a template for PC consuptions and instructions on how to apply it:

Ogres As Characters

Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.

* +10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
* Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
* Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
* An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
* Racial Skills: An ogre’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, and Spot.
* Racial Feats: An ogre’s giant levels give it two feats.
* Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
* +5 natural armor bonus.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
* Level adjustment +2.

It tells you everything you need to know for playing the race as a player. What it modifies, what is changed, etc.

Now I was partially wrong in this statement, there are a few undead types who have character templates like this. I think like 5 out of 20 (total guesstimate) and I didn't see them in my first flip through the Undead types.

The MM doesn't have these quick template PC statups for the common undead types and you'd assume that it would be there rather than just saying "we have undead class levels, but you can just apply the +ECL to your character and use these other ones" when those other ones wern't in PC format. It just seemed that they would take those common undead and provide the PC templates as well.

That was why I found it generic/vague. They tell you about two alternate ways to do something, then don't follow up on one of the methods (templates) for the basic undead, just the new undead.

They said there were two options for PCs: Templates & Undead Levels. The templates just seemed to mention a type of undead and what the ECL was, not an explicit writeup of player bonuses/benefits.

The level progressions not only make playing those undead PC-friendly, they make playing those undead available as options to 1st level characters. And if a creature or template doesn't include an LA, then that means the creature or template isn't intended/is too powerful for PCs.

The Ghoul is flat out mentioned for use with PCs, has an alternate Undead Class and it says you can apply the undead type as a template to PCs, but there is no writeup in template form of what bonuses/effects happen to the player.

None of the undead were viable players in the MM. They wern't assumed that you would be one. I also understand that with a +LA means you can't be a first level character with said template. The section on playing monsters doesn't say that if they don't have PC notes or LA like the Ogre does, that they can't be used. It says that the most common and obvious races for PC use are statted out.

Just because the Ghoul isn't statted out with a beneficial PC template block doesn't mean that they're unplayable. But I'd assume a book that makes them playable would provide that template block for ease of use.

The few Undead races there were didn't cover the basics - player zombies are far more a staple of Roleplaying than all the other undead sans vampires.

Except, of course, that zombies are mindless. Which is why they aren't suitable for a PC.

The D&D zombie is mindless and isn't suitable for a PC.

Many games, movies & books do have different zombies and they are extremely popular to play. A section talking about "so you want to play a zombie" explaining what undead types would actually fill your need (like the Ghoul or Necropoliton) would be handy. Same with skeletons.

I mean it's great that D&D zombies & D&D skeletons in their 1/4th CR grandour arn't great for PCs, but you may want to play a zombie or skeleton and need to know what your options would be in the system.

In the hour I was looking at the book they had the few undead classes and a lot of undead statblocks and templates for them, but no notes on how to apply those templates to the stat blocks AND make them into PCs. They didn't effect the # of hit dice and I think that was the only thing that modified the ECL.

You appear to be confused as to how playing a monster character works. Your ECL is the sum of your Class levels + your Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment(LA). Templates rarely, if ever, increase the number of hit dice, but they usually have a Level Adjustment.

You're right that I probobly don't fully understand playing Monsters (which is why I created this thread and have been asking questions about it) but I understand that your ECL is your Class Levels + RHD + LA. Some templates apply bonuses (like Fast zombie or Unkillable zombie) but don't have a +LA and don't apply a bonus to HD (but do apply a CR bonus), so it would be like a free benefit for a PC, which doesn't seem right.

 

[daTim]

I always thought The Crow was a Revenant, though it doesnt appear to be in the SRD. I'm sure it is in the Monster Manual though. It would be hard to play one as a PC, because they are impossible to keep dead.

 

[Denaes]

I always thought The Crow was a Revenant, though it doesnt appear to be in the SRD. I'm sure it is in the Monster Manual though. It would be hard to play one as a PC, because they are impossible to keep dead.

Yeah, The Crow would be a bit over the top for most group games. It would be neat in a solo game.

 

[Old Fart]

I think the Crow as a concept suffers a bit from "cross-genre syndorme." On the other hand, it's Eberron, which is already cross-genre (pulp and fantasy), so what the heck?

Here's how I'd do it:

1) Start with a human monk. Make Con your dump stat. Take Improved Toughness as your free feat.
2) Pick up the Tattoed Monk PrC ASAP. There's a tattoo in there (not sure which one - don't have my books in front of me) that is a white mask over the face (IIRC, it gives bonuses to bluff and/or disguise). It's perfect for that "mime from hell" look.
3) Lose a level for taking the Necropolitan template from LM, as was suggested above. Your hit dice become d12, your con is now irrelevant, and you still get bonus from Improved Toughness. Your monk abilities should all still function (even the self heal, if you went high enough in Monk to get it, says nothing about it being positive energy based, or requiring that you be alive).
4) Be prepared for the DM to have BBEGs named Funboy, T-Bird, and Skank

 

[Denaes]

I think the Crow as a concept suffers a bit from "cross-genre syndorme." On the other hand, it's Eberron, which is already cross-genre (pulp and fantasy), so what the heck?

Here's how I'd do it:

1) Start with a human monk. Make Con your dump stat. Take Improved Toughness as your free feat.
2) Pick up the Tattoed Monk PrC ASAP. There's a tattoo in there (not sure which one - don't have my books in front of me) that is a white mask over the face (IIRC, it gives bonuses to bluff and/or disguise). It's perfect for that "mime from hell" look.
3) Lose a level for taking the Necropolitan template from LM, as was suggested above. Your hit dice become d12, your con is now irrelevant, and you still get bonus from Improved Toughness. Your monk abilities should all still function (even the self heal, if you went high enough in Monk to get it, says nothing about it being positive energy based, or requiring that you be alive).
4) Be prepared for the DM to have BBEGs named Funboy, T-Bird, and Skank

So you think the Monk would work with being undead? I don't personally see a reason why not other than the "lawful" part.

I'm not looking to mimick the crow, I was just using it as an example of the sort of sentience and playability as opposed to a "stupid" zombie.

But I think I like the build overall. Even being level 10 with an Undead Template, I look at the Ogre Barbarian and suddenly don't feel like I'm up to par.