So I want to make a zombie character...

[griff_goodbeard]

I'll reitterate if you have access to The book of vile darkness, the "corpse" creature template is exactly what you're looking for.


I think some of the confusion above comes from your use of the word template when refering to the ogre class And various undead. It took me a second to get you meaning. It's semantics mostly, but the ogre class you posted isn't a "template" as defined by D&D rules. It certainly makes sense for you to refer to it as a character template, but within the scope of D&D "template" takes on a new meaning. Ogre would be a race (the fact that it has racial hd and a LA is irrelevant to what it's called), not a template. A template is something added to a race to change/improve it in some way.

Example: a human, an orc, and a dwarf are all slain by a ghoul, when they rise they are just ghouls, their former race is irrelevant. Thy have all the stats of a ghoul from the MM. Ghoul effectively "becomes" their race.

Now Gravetouched Ghoul is a template and if the same three characters from above were raised as GT ghouls they would retain their race and racial feature and just add the GT ghoul features on top of that.

It's a small distinction, and I do apologize if you know all this already. It just seemed to me that there was some confusion with people trying to provide the best advice possible.

Good Gaming!

 

[Denaes]

So saying my character was created as a Monk up to level 8 and became undead...

All the monk abilities would continue to work?

If the charater maintained a Lawful alignment they could continue as monk? is there a unarmed PrC that would work well for an undead martial artist?

Now as to type...

I'm seriously thinking to take a Ghoul Template, which in Libre Mortis is listed as +3 LA. The ghoul seems to be pretty sweet melee wise, a very competent undead as being a PC is involved and I LOVE the fact that they eat flesh. It really hits me in that "zombie sweet spot"

Now a Ghoul gets two claw attacks & a bite with the extra attacks at -2. how would this work, if at all with Flurry of Blows?

If I'm 8th level Monk, do I keep my d4hp for those levels or go back and retroactively apply a d12? Or is it only d12 after I turn into an undead?

 

[Denaes]

It's a small distinction, and I do apologize if you know all this already. It just seemed to me that there was some confusion with people trying to provide the best advice possible.

Good Gaming!

Thank you for explaining. Yes, I wasn't properly using the correct terms and mixing things up. I have the concepts in my mind, but I wasn't conveying it correctly.

Sorry about the confusion.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

So saying my character was created as a Monk up to level 8 and became undead...

All the monk abilities would continue to work?

If the charater maintained a Lawful alignment they could continue as monk? is there a unarmed PrC that would work well for an undead martial artist?

Now as to type...

I'm seriously thinking to take a Ghoul Template, which in Libre Mortis is listed as +3 LA. The ghoul seems to be pretty sweet melee wise, a very competent undead as being a PC is involved and I LOVE the fact that they eat flesh. It really hits me in that "zombie sweet spot"

Now a Ghoul gets two claw attacks & a bite with the extra attacks at -2. how would this work, if at all with Flurry of Blows?

If I'm 8th level Monk, do I keep my d4hp for those levels or go back and retroactively apply a d12? Or is it only d12 after I turn into an undead?

I'll asume you're talking about the Gravetouched ghoul (cuz you can't take regular ghoul as a template ). You do go back and retroactivly change all HD to d12's rerolling them. As far as mixing flurry with claw/claw/bite, I don't think they interact. I'm not a monk expert, but I belive the RAW would be that you get your normal umarmed stike attacks so if you flurried it would be (assuming BA of +6/+1) +4/+4/-1 and then because you have natural weapos you can choose to make secondary attacks with them, taking the -5 penalty, so an additional 3 attacks at +1/+1/+1.

I don't have any of my books with me here, so I might be wrong, but I think that's how it goes.

 

[Denaes]

I'll asume you're talking about the Gravetouched ghoul (cuz you can't take regular ghoul as a template ).

Yes, you can play a normal Ghoul. On page 32 of Libre Mortis (I brought my book to work today ), it explicitly lists a Ghoul as +3 LA and as one of the playable undead. This is why I wasn't happy they didn't include the standard Ghoul (or other basic undead) Template (or instructions on how to use as a player) in Libre Mortis - because the MM just stats the Ghoul out as a normal monster (but does have hints on how to play normal monsters).

Now in this case, I don't even see what a normal ghoul has over a gravetouched for that extra +1LA, despite Gravetouched seemingly being described as elite Ghouls other than normal Ghouls are listed as being able to be of any alignment (as a quirk for players) but the Gravetouched doesn't mention that.

You do go back and retroactivly change all HD to d12's rerolling them.

Sweet. I was hoping that was how it worked out.

As far as mixing flurry with claw/claw/bite, I don't think they interact. I'm not a monk expert, but I belive the RAW would be that you get your normal umarmed stike attacks so if you flurried it would be (assuming BA of +6/+1) +4/+4/-1 and then because you have natural weapos you can choose to make secondary attacks with them, taking the -5 penalty, so an additional 3 attacks at +1/+1/+1.

So I'd get my Flurry, then add my secondary attacks afterwards? Both the standard Ghoul & Gravetouched get the Multiattack feat for a -2 penalty rather than -5.

I don't have any of my books with me here, so I might be wrong, but I think that's how it goes.

Thanks for your help.

Even without your books, you seem more knowledgable than me. Our group has never had a Monk nor Undead PC

 

[griff_goodbeard]

Yes, you can play a normal Ghoul. On page 32 of Libre Mortis (I brought my book to work today ), it explicitly lists a Ghoul as +3 LA and as one of the playable undead. This is why I wasn't happy they didn't include the standard Ghoul (or other basic undead) Template (or instructions on how to use as a player) in Libre Mortis - because the MM just stats the Ghoul out as a normal monster (but does have hints on how to play normal monsters).

Now in this case, I don't even see what a normal ghoul has over a gravetouched for that extra +1LA, despite Gravetouched seemingly being described as elite Ghouls other than normal Ghouls are listed as being able to be of any alignment (as a quirk for players) but the Gravetouched doesn't mention that.

Ahh, I understand now. Although if memory serves (I could be wrong, it's been a few weeks since I cracked open LM) If you want to play a ghoul, then you have to take the ghoul hd that comes with it. So instead of being an 8th level monk (+3LA), you'd be a ghoul2(racial HD)/monk 6/ +3 LA.

 

[IcyCool]

The link I gave you to (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm) does have a template for PC consuptions and instructions on how to apply it:

Ok, first off, here's a big source of the confusion. Template is a game term. You have been using it as both a game term and not as a game term. Half-dragon is a template, Half-fiend is a template, Ogre is not a template. Sorry about the confusion, but I couldn't understand where you were finding an Ogre template.

Now, yes the information block for the Ogre nicely spells out what a pc Ogre gets. WotC did this for several monsters that "make suitable PC races". For others, they just included a LA.

That was why I found it generic/vague. They tell you about two alternate ways to do something, then don't follow up on one of the methods (templates) for the basic undead, just the new undead.

Let's just use the word "templates" as a game term, and only apply it to such. Let's call the ogre example you provided a "PC race block", or something.

The Ghoul is flat out mentioned for use with PCs, has an alternate Undead Class and it says you can apply the undead type as a template to PCs, but there is no writeup in template form of what bonuses/effects happen to the player.

What it is saying in that section is, you can apply one of the several different undead templates to a character (such as the Vampire, Lich, or Ghost templates), or you can use the Savage Species progression for an undead creature. Let's take your basic ghoul for example. Ghoul is not a template. It is an undead creature with 2 racial hit dice, and a +3 level adjustment (according to Libris Mortis). This means that a standard ghoul as a PC is the equivalent of a 5th level character. The book, "Savage Species" provided rules for how to create "monster classes", so that if someone wanted to play a ghoul in a 1st level party (as an ECL 1 character), they could. That character would take more levels of ghoul until he hit 5th level, where he could start taking class levels.

None of the undead were viable players in the MM. They wern't assumed that you would be one.

Well, the Lich, Ghost, and Vampire templates all have a LA, and as such can be made as PCs. But you are correct, until Libris Mortis came out, there was no LA for ghouls.

The section on playing monsters doesn't say that if they don't have PC notes or LA like the Ogre does, that they can't be used. It says that the most common and obvious races for PC use are statted out.

Check page 7 in the Monster Manual, under level adjustment:

This line is included in entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with Intelligence scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable thumbs).

If it doesn't contain a Level Adjustment, it isn't intended for PC use. That doesn't mean you can take the race or template and apply if for free. What it means is that your GM will have to make up a level adjustment. If you have Savage Species, it has rules in there that can help you on this.

Just because the Ghoul isn't statted out with a beneficial PC template block doesn't mean that they're unplayable. But I'd assume a book that makes them playable would provide that template block for ease of use.

In either the Monster Manual, or the DMG (I forget which), it shows you how to come up with that PC race block. The main thing is figuring out the stat modifiers. This is pretty easy though. If the Attribute is an even number, subtract 10. If it is Odd, subtract 11. This will give you the stat modifiers for the race. As you are keen on playing a ghoul, I will go through creating this "PC race block" with you for the ghoul.

The D&D zombie is mindless and isn't suitable for a PC.

And that is why it doesn't have a LA. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a mindless creature that does.

Some templates apply bonuses (like Fast zombie or Unkillable zombie) but don't have a +LA and don't apply a bonus to HD (but do apply a CR bonus), so it would be like a free benefit for a PC, which doesn't seem right.

As I mentioned above, if a template doesn't contain a LA (note, an LA of +0 is an LA), then you don't just get it for free. It isn't meant for player use. Your GM would have to make up a LA for it.

At any rate, on to the "PC Race Block" for a Ghoul:

Ghoul characters possess the following racial traits:
+2 Str, +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +2 Charisma
As an undead creature, a Ghoul possesses no Constitution score.
Medium Size
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
A ghoul's base land speed is 30ft
Racial Hit Dice: A ghoul begins with 2 levels of undead, which provide 2d12 hit dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3.
Racial Skills: A ghoul's undead levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (4 + Int modifier). It's Class skills are Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, and Spot.
+2 Natural Armor bonus
Special attacks: Ghoul fever, Paralysis
Special qualities: Darkvision 60ft, undead traits, +2 turn resistance
Weapon and Armor proficiency: A ghoul is automatically proficient with its natural weapons, and all simple weapons.
Automatic Languages: Usually Common.
Favored Class: Ghoul
Level Adjustment: +3

I got the stats by subtracting 10 or 11 (depending on whether the stat in the Monster Manual was even or odd). The rest of the information was pulled straight out of the Monster Manual, albeit from various places. If you would like help on understanding where a part of the PC Race Block came from, ask and I'll let you know.

If you decided to go monk, and your game started at 9th level, you would have a ghoul with 4 monk levels (ECL 9).

That being said, now that I've statted that out, I think you are honestly better off just using the "Gravetouched Ghoul" template in Libris Mortis. It's only LA +2, and gets you pretty much most of the best things about a ghoul. That way, you'd have a 7th level monk with all of the "Gravetouched Ghoul" benefits.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Now a Ghoul gets two claw attacks & a bite with the extra attacks at -2. how would this work, if at all with Flurry of Blows?

It doesn't mix with Flurry of Blows because Flurry of Blows limits you to using monk weapons or unarmed attacks. Natural weapons - which is what your claws and bites are - are neither, and so cannot be used with FoB.*

You can, however, make a normal full attack and then use your claws and bite as secondary natural weapons (so long as you aren't holding anything in the hand whose claws you want to use). You get to make one additional attack with each of them, at a -5 penalty from your highest attack bonus**, and you apply 1/2 of your Strength modifier to damage.

* - The FAQ says that you can mix non-monk weapons with your Flurry of Blows. I think it's wrong, but your DM might allow it anyway.

** - Or a -2 penalty if you have the Multiattack feat. You still only get 1/2 of your Strength bonus to damage, however.

 

[IcyCool]

Yes, you can play a normal Ghoul. On page 32 of Libre Mortis (I brought my book to work today ), it explicitly lists a Ghoul as +3 LA and as one of the playable undead. This is why I wasn't happy they didn't include the standard Ghoul (or other basic undead) Template (or instructions on how to use as a player) in Libre Mortis - because the MM just stats the Ghoul out as a normal monster (but does have hints on how to play normal monsters).

Not everything that has a LA is a template. Most monsters have Racial Hit Dice and a level adjustment. You can't just get the benefits of the monster without the Racial Hit Dice, or without the LA, you have to take both. You'll note that in the same Libris Mortis table that lists Ghoul as +3 LA, it also states that they are ECL 5 (meaning you add the 2 ghoul hit dice to the +3 LA for a total of 5).

So I'd get my Flurry, then add my secondary attacks afterwards? Both the standard Ghoul & Gravetouched get the Multiattack feat for a -2 penalty rather than -5.

This is a highly contested issue. Some folks will tell you that you get your Flurry, and then get your secondary natural attacks afterwards, and some will tell you that you don't get to use your natural attacks if you Flurry. Check with your GM to see how he wants to run it.

 

[Denaes]

Looking at the Gravetouched Ghoul, it mentions their claw/claw/bite under a header "Full Attack". There is also text mentioning that if they have a weapon, they choose the claw/claw/bite or weapon. That leads me to believe that it's a full attack option, which normally don't just add onto other attacks, like flurry of blows.

That really makes the Gravetouched a bit less useful in combo with a monk. Now victims hit by the Claw or Bite attacks inflict Paralysis. A Monk can attack with any body part, which I'd assume would include claws/nails (if the race has them) and bites. Is there a ruling that would prevent Paralysis & Ghoul Fevor from working with Flurry of Blows if the attack is described as being from the claws/bite?

Being a Ghoul, I'm pretty sure being Lawful is right out. Under the undead class of ghoul it mentions that Ghouls are CE and how to 'relax' that for PCs. Lawful is described as exceedingly rare and while I don't want to be evil, I'm going to be a flesh eater and very conflicted so I don't want to be lawful.

Aside from taking up Fighter with a focus on unarmed combat afterwards, is there another class (or PrC) that deals with unarmed combat that wouldn't conflict with many levels of Monk? Or even a variant Monk class for the "non-lawful". I'm limited to D&D books, not other d20 stuff.

I snaked the Complete Warrior from a friend the other day and it seems to be the wrong book somehow. They have that Tattooed Monk and a Drunken Style Fighter, but nothing else (at a glance) I could say involved unarmed combat.

Would the Monk options be the Divine or Adventurer book instead?