So is this indeed how it works?

[ForbidenMaster]

So there's only two extremes? No, I don't want to spend 4 hours creating a monster. But I'd have no problem spending 30 minutes, even an hour, on the ultimate villian of my entire campaign, so that the players perhaps don't see every attack and ability he has in 3 rounds of combat.

Then dont use every ability in the first 3 rounds of combat. The dragon has 8 attacks (only 6 really matter). Unless you are spamming action points you are never going to use all of them within 3 rounds. Also, a good way to surprise PCs is to use a power that only "activates" when the creature is bloodied. Seriously, the only difference that I see between 3.x and 4ed is that in 4ed you can get the same level of depth and get the monster that you actually want in a 1/8 of the time.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

I don't understand anything in your post.

We are not talking about tigers. We are talking about the ultimate, iconic villian of fantasy gaming. And I have no idea what you mean by 'compliling the abilities of two monsters'.

I think he was being sarcastic for the first part of his post. As for the end of his post, I think he means take the powers from two monsters and give them all to one monster.

 

[ZetaStriker]

I hope you people are taking into account the fact that anyone standing anywhere near the vincinity of an ancient dragon is taking an energy-appropiate thirty-some damage every turn.


Every


Turn

Reminds me of Godzilla vs. the Smog Monster. It just flies overhead, and everyone on the street just randomly falls down dead. XD

 

[Boarstorm]

At the risk of giving an actual answer to the OP's concerns, consider:

Monster HP and Player HP do not scale at the same rate, ergo their damages do not scale at the same rate, either.

For a big solo monster, the 100 points of damage a PC is potentially able to dish out is... well, not piddling, but not a source of REAL immediate concern.

For a level 30 PC, that 40-50 points the monster is doing in return is a lot more scary.

So, while it seems wonky that the two dragons would have to fight each other for roughly... oh... forever, when you place either of them against a PC it works like a charm.

It's another example of PC-centric (gamist) design as opposed to simulationism.

 

[ShockMeSane]

Having run some simulated combats, let me assure you that Ancient Red Dragons need that many hps, lest they be slain in one round by a group of heroes with action points handy.

Said Dragon can and will use his breath weapon and Immolate Foe on its first round of combat. This is around 100 damage considering the ongoing fire damage and the fact that any Fire Resistance you may have possesed is gone, roughly half a fighter's hps, in addition to whatever collateral damage gets dealt to your allies from the breath.

A level 30 character can easily do 150 damage in a round without a crit if they use their action point and manage a double-hit. Honestly I would expect a 5 PC group with one of the power-buffs of a Warlord or Cleric to probably deal about 200-250 damage a round to the Dragon after the action-point round, taking into account crits and misses (a single crit is in the neighborhood of 150 at this point).

I imagine it would actually be a relatively intense battle, around 5-7 rounds in length depending on luck. Obviously if the players roll a string of low results on their best dailies and action points it might draw out, just as if they roll a couple crits on the first few power attacks it'd be lights out faster.

Pacing seems on track to me.

 

[Andur]

It's not that hard really, just slap a template or two on your "ultimate villian series"...

Vampiric Wizard Red Dragon
Studly Fighter Red Dragon
"Coke and a Smile" Rogue Red Dragon
Abyssal Warlock Red Dragon

etc. (Most template names made up on the spot...)

 

[chaotix42]

The Red is a soldier, and his HP, defenses, and melee power are unmatched by the other dragons - the White has impressive melee power for his level, but his HP and defenses aren't anywhere near the Red's.

The other dragons offer a much more robust array of abilities at the cost of pure offensive power. The Blue is nasty - it can Wingclap a target as part of a move action, has an at-will Thunderclap that stuns everyone in a close burst, and an at-will long range Lightning Burst that hits a wide area. This is on top of its gore that knocks you back AND prone, the claw/double claw routine, breath weapon that chains to three targets, bloodied breath, and frightful presence.

But, if you want a pure melee bruiser to wade into your PC's midst and really show them what-for, the Red is your boy.

The chromatic dragon splatbook is on its way as well. I can only imagine the silly power creep awesome stuff that awaits...

 

[Rauthik]

I'm totally on board with the 4e concept of simplifying NPCs and monsters. I love the idea that a group of enemies can be described and be combat capable with only a few lines of stats. But when you get to villians, NPC or monster, I want more detail. While I don't care if his minions are paper-cutout thinly developed, the evil vampire or dragon or devil I want to have the same level of complexity as the players. To me this makes him more interesting to myself and the players.

Everything I've heard of these high level monsters so far they seem so simplified, reduced to a handful of mediocre attacks and one, maybe two special abilities.

From what I understand, the beauty of the 4e rules is that while everything is simplified, you can (as the DM) make it as complex as you want. To paraphrase Mike Mearls when I spoke to him at ICON, if you want to give a monster or NPC an ability or bonus to something, then you do it. You're the DM and the rules now back you up, where as in 3.x things were very cut and dry. Now you can customize your monsters/NPCs in "about 5 to 10 minutes". He described creating encounters with stock creatures from the MM and then customizing the big guys and the whole thing taking under 45 minutes, where just creating an NPC in 3.5 would take over an hour.

So, yeah, the dragons will have other abilities. You're the DM, look at the PBH and grab the powers that you believe to be reasonable/cool for the dragon to have. The system is completely maleable. It just all goes back to what someone said earlier (I forget who it was, sorry) but if the encounter/fight is boring, it's the storyteller/DMs fault, not the game mechanics.

 

[Korgoth]

So it takes an epic, Silmarillion-level dragon 5 1/2 minutes to fight another epic, Silmarillion-level dragon... so?

The stats of the epic dragon seem alright. What is it supposed to do that it doesn't do already? Its bite can crit for 90, right? It will gobble up characters right quick.

 

[Blackeagle]

No, I don't want to spend 4 hours creating a monster. But I'd have no problem spending 30 minutes, even an hour, on the ultimate villian of my entire campaign, so that the players perhaps don't see every attack and ability he has in 3 rounds of combat.

What's stopping you? Monsters in 4e are extremely customizable. Slap a template on it. Heck it's intelligent, slap a class template on it. Maybe a wizard template to give it back some of the spellcasting it lost (this is probably what I'm doing for my game). Really want something different? Use the monster creation rules to build a dragon from scratch. If you're willing to put a little bit of time into it, you can get anything you want.