So is this indeed how it works?

[malraux]

A Dragon must breath fire (I am willing to accept some alternate kind of breath weapons, but really, for fire definitely is my favorite, all D&Dismns or differing mythologies be damned), should fly around and eat virgins and wanna-be-dragon slayers.

That's what I demand of a real dragon.

You forgot hoard treasure and sleep on piles of coins.

 

[shadowguidex]

Wait wait wait wait....

Are you telling me.... <chuckle> ....that you ACTUALLY roll out all the attacks when you have two monsters fight each other while the PCs observe? Do your players fall asleep or just talk about movies and who got laid recently? Hell, I don't even roll our the attacks if I have a squad of 4 NPC guards helping the heroes kill off some orcs (I use average damage per round - kinda like how the new minion rules work).

I think you're making WAY too big a deal out of this sort of "issue".

If you're having two monsters fight each other, just write up a quick description of what happens and move on...make it as epic or mundane as you wish, but don't sit and roll the fricken dice for each round, talk about needlessly anal retentive details.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Tons of other things are big, powerful, smart, can fly and do elemental damage.

In D&D Dragons needs something more to differentiate them from all the other big flying scare stuff besides being shaped like huge lizards.

Especially if you stick with the fluff that D&D designers are still using - dragons being worshipped by lesser beings, or (according to the 4E MM) the most powerful ones actually being rivals for the gods.

Back when an ancient red dragon was an unrivaled machine of destruction that also happened to be one of the most intelligent creatures in existence and a very high level spellcaster, that sort of thing made sense. Now, when it's just a really tough melee monster with no spells and an 18 Intelligence? Not so much.

Your conclusion is false. Just because we have not seen a dragon that rivals gods does not mean there is not one. In fact, I guarantee that if I take the Red Dragon and stick a pair of templates on it, I will have something pretty godlike.

Of course, it also depends on your definition of "rival for the gods" is. Consider its most basic ability, the fire aura. Its very presence deals 30 fire damage to everything around it in a huge radius. Imagine witnessing such an event: the ground blackening with its every footstep, plants reduced to smoldering ash by its presence, the very air around it sizzling and shimmering with heat. It so hot, almost anyone who gets to close simply dies, their clothes and skin bursting into flame, their blood boiling in seconds, their eyes melting out of their sockets.

Seems pretty godlike to me.

 

[Mirtek]

Exactly. People have the books, and they focus on this?

Speaking of boring.

I admit, if I had the PDF I think I would do the same. I am especially interested in how the high level demons/devils/dragons compare the the demigods (as far as I read there is at least Doresain in the MM as servant of Orcus).

What I got from reading spoiler threads Doresain, as a demigod, seems to be too close to (and in case of ancient dragons even below the) the level of the upper non-divine beings.

I guess I won't know before the 7th, but to me this sounds that having to squeeze anything between lvl 1-30 didn't leave them enough room for proper distinctions of power

Especially if you stick with the fluff that D&D designers are still using - dragons being worshipped by lesser beings, or (according to the 4E MM) the most powerful ones actually being rivals for the gods.

Well, I have the gut feeling that the deities won't be able to do much either.

Just judging from what I read about their level/status most ancient dragons should be able to kick Doresain's ass (and this guy is a demigod).

Still have to wait for the book release to know for sure, but other posted that even Orcus actually can't do very much (sure, he has HIGH attack bonus, HIGH defences, LOT of hp, ...., but not much options and the guy is a primordial peer to lesser deities)

 

[DandD]

If you want your ancient red dragon to be able to cast spells, apply class-templates or whatever strange alternative template there is, to show that he's seriously one of the most strongest of its kind, the same as the Player Characters differ from their non-heroic NPC fellows.

Of course, most of this problem only arise because some people still are "simulationists", whereas D&D 4th edition clearly admits to only care about functional game rules for the interaction between player characters and game master in an abstract way. I wouldn't want to watch the game master roll out a battle between two monsters, if all we did was to watch. That's not why people come to play.

 

[Voss]

Tons of other things are big, powerful, smart, can fly and do elemental damage.

In D&D Dragons needs something more to differentiate them from all the other big flying scare stuff besides being shaped like huge lizards.

Especially if you stick with the fluff that D&D designers are still using - dragons being worshipped by lesser beings, or (according to the 4E MM) the most powerful ones actually being rivals for the gods.

Well, a lot of this stuff is really subjective. It may be what you want in D&D, but it isn't necessarily what other people want in D&D

Back when an ancient red dragon was an unrivaled machine of destruction that also happened to be one of the most intelligent creatures in existence and a very high level spellcaster, that sort of thing made sense. Now, when it's just a really tough melee monster with no spells and an 18 Intelligence? Not so much.

You mean back when it had 88 hit points and a 13th level fighter could kill it in 2 rounds? Because thats classic D&D right there.

Though, one of my bigger issues with 4e is that solo monsters (and elites) like the dragons are game-math-breaking headaches for everyone involved. These fights seem to drag more often than they are interesting.

 

[MarkB]

It's not about dragons fighting each other. In what game has a DM rolled out a fight between two dragons while the PCs sit and watch? (Please let me know and I'll be sure to steer clear of it)

It doesn't need to be the DM that's doing it. Last time we fought an Epic dragon in 3.5e, two members of the party were riding adult bronze dragons, and the cleric Gated in a wyrm Gold Dragon as reinforcements.

Dragons don't just need to work versus the PCs, they need to work versus the PCs and whatever allies they can reasonably acquire.

 

[Midknightsun]

Also, a general announcement: from now on using "well, make it up yourself" in response to a complaint about something missing from the game means you lose the thread.

I would like to make up the first official "well, make it up yourself" club.

Anyone wanna join?

Since I made it up, I get to be President though.


Seriously, I see this disparagement of creativity all over this board. There are far to many left brained individuals who seem to have the underlying belief that if a solid mechanic isn't set forth for their idea, factory ready, its meaningless. . .or that everything THEY can imagine must be covered under the rules, as if some unified theory of roleplaying will emerge granting the game a para-real existence.

My imagination is bigger than the rules. All imagination should be. The rules just give me a basic skeleton to build on. So make it up, suits me just fine. YMMV, and clearly does.

 

[Dausuul]

Seriously, I see this disparagement of creativity all over this board. There are far to many left brained individuals who seem to have the underlying belief that if a solid mechanic isn't set forth for their idea, factory ready, its meaningless. . .or that everything THEY can imagine must be covered under the rules, as if some unified theory of roleplaying will emerge granting the game a para-real existence.

My imagination is bigger than the rules. All imagination should be. The rules just give me a basic skeleton to build on. So make it up, suits me just fine. YMMV, and clearly does.

Well, the real question is, what belongs in the rules and what should be left up to the DM?

Some things clearly belong in the rules. For example, the rules should say how to calculate a PC's hit points. It would be silly to require the DM to make up something like that; this is the sort of thing we have rulebooks for.

On the other hand, some things clearly don't belong in the rules and ought to be left to the DM's creativity. For example, the rules should not dictate what the BBEG's name is.

Where does the boundary lie? Well, opinions differ on that one--see for example the argument about whether the name "Golden Wyvern" ought to be written into the rules.

There's also a middle ground, in that the rulebooks may include tools to help the DM make stuff up. For instance, we have basic stats and abilities for a red dragon, plus an array of templates and class levels that can be added to customize the beast. This allows DMs to "make up" new versions of the dragon without having to do it all from scratch.

 

[mmu1]

I would like to make up the first official "well, make it up yourself" club.

Anyone wanna join?

Since I made it up, I get to be President though.


Seriously, I see this disparagement of creativity all over this board. There are far to many left brained individuals who seem to have the underlying belief that if a solid mechanic isn't set forth for their idea, factory ready, its meaningless. . .or that everything THEY can imagine must be covered under the rules, as if some unified theory of roleplaying will emerge granting the game a para-real existence.

My imagination is bigger than the rules. All imagination should be. The rules just give me a basic skeleton to build on. So make it up, suits me just fine. YMMV, and clearly does.

Are you done patting yourself on the back?

The reason you can imagine anything is precisely the reason why a game like D&D needs pre-determined rules.

Anyone can be "creative" - as long as you don't care about the results. Hell, a gorilla can have an art show. But being creative and coming up with something that's worth a damn and - most importantly - actually works is hard. That's what I'm paying money for, not for someone to tell me "Never stop dreaming! Reach for the stars! Believe in your imagination!" or some other platitude.