Achan hiArusa
Explorer
So what spells would work as Incantations in E6 and up to what level do you think should be allowable?
So Ryan What about Incantations in E6?
VanceMadrox
First Post
I can think of one 6th level you'd need.
Break Enchantment.
Over all though there really isn't much need for anything past 5th level.
Which is another reason I don't think ritual magic is needed for E8.
Just sayin
Break Enchantment.
Over all though there really isn't much need for anything past 5th level.
Which is another reason I don't think ritual magic is needed for E8.
Just sayin
VanceMadrox
First Post
Disregard that.
Break Enchantment is only 5th.
Still a ritual mass bull's strength could be fun.
Break Enchantment is only 5th.
Still a ritual mass bull's strength could be fun.
VanceMadrox
First Post
Heh true.
Though a ritual to give Bull's Strength to an entire army would be cool.
Though a ritual to give Bull's Strength to an entire army would be cool.
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
Did you mean that 4th and 5th level incantations should have quest worthy components or that if you thought of a 6th or higher level spell that it would have quest worthy components?
http://www.oocities.org/spike_fightwicky/d20modernsrd/urbanincnew.html
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
So I'm tempted to write up 4th and 5th level spells as Incantations, since spellcasting stops at 3rd level spells.
So what would be a good target DC for 4th and 5th considering that most incantations are DC 32 and because of the level limit the max roll will be 38?
So what would be a good target DC for 4th and 5th considering that most incantations are DC 32 and because of the level limit the max roll will be 38?
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Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
I'm not Ryan, nor do I play him on TV (or the internet). However, I personally happen to be a big fan of an old product called "The Artificer's Handbook". The intent behind it was to create a new approach to creating magic items that didn't rely on XP cost. It's a really slick little product and has the nice bonus of providing a fairly consistent approach to things.
I personally happen to think it's an ideal complement to an E6/E8 game. I don't happen to have my copy handy right now, but I seem to recall it also included rules for people working together to create things, as well as magic items in Low/Medium/High magic settings.
You can still buy the pdf version from Your Games now, as well as e23. You might be able to find a print version, but it might take some effort.
An updated version of a bunch of the rules was made freely available. You can download it here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/240200-artificer-handbook-update.html
So where am I going with this?
Well, first of all the Artificer's Handbook will basically provide you with a system for handling magic item creation. With a bit of tweaking, you should be able to set rules into place that require items of a certain sort to be group-created. In other words, magic items above a certain level might still exist in your game, but they're the result of a Wizard's Guild or some other group of like-minded whatevers working together to imbue the necessary magic into an item.
Additionally, the item creation system could basically be extended to spells themselves; or in this case, rituals. Essentially, these things can still be around, you just need to have a Primary caster who winds up being augmented by additional...whatevers.
The whatevers is where things can really come together for you. The Artificer's Handbook has a section on spell components, but it doesn't have to be _that_ simplistic. Essentially what you do is, figure out how much of an additional augmentation (spell slot) an item, component, or other caster is. This augmentation is either going to reduce the number of spell-slots required for an item, or modify the caster's effective level; not having implemented this in a game yet, I can't say which is the best option.
This means you can have rituals that even a single caster _could_ cast, but only if they have the right components, items/fetishes, and possibly time/location. What you're looking to do behind the scenes is tweak the system enough to allow you to have the rituals/items you want, while still keeping item crafting for fun and profit out of your game.
So for example, a ritual might happen to require several special spell components (herbs and body-parts don't tend to last a long time, so it's not like these can be stock-piled easily by a PC), each of which effectively acts to reduce the number of spell slots required. Casting the spell during a full-moon might act to increase the caster's level for purposes of performing the ritual. The location could act as either a caster augmentation, or a spell-slot-requirement reduction. An item such as a wand or some other fetish could act as either an augmentation or a reduction as well.
Taking this approach not only gives you a consistent and relatively easy method for handling rituals/items/spells above a certain level (once you've fleshed out the framework you feel you need) but it becomes much easier to embed this into the game as an adventure or series of adventures. That of course assumes you've got a magically inclined group that doesn't mind this sort of thing.
Now you've got people hunting specific creatures, spells etc that are seasonal (owing to when certain components are available due to plant cycle or possibly creature reprodution or whatever), a time component (full/new moon, holiday, etc), a utensil component ("Dudes, it's gotta be the wand to Hytarki; he's the only mage that successfully created a wand to do this ritual."), and of course the location component ("Necromancy is stronger at the Standing Stones of Latarch") and possibly even a membership ("I gotta get a bunch of the boys from the guild....") component.
Depending on your nature as a GM and the nature of your players, this is the sort of thing that can happen "behind the screen" or you can just let the players have all the information and let them figure out the approach they want to take. And it's a great way of setting up cabals etc that the players might have to deal with as well. Summoning a Demon might take some major mojo, but can you imagine what a cabal augmented by a Demon might be able to create or what sort of spell might be wrought?
And of course, there's the option of having some formal rituals pre-setup; these reflect the rituals/items/whatever that you're willing to allow in your world in a controlled fashion. It might be expensive/inconvienent for a person in the world to perform, but it's "common" enough. Somebody wants to use a spell from some supplement or there's a desire for a "one off" spell for some reason... that goes into the custom side of things and you can make it more difficult as appropriate.
The solution above may not work for everyone, but I think it provides a fairly consistent approach that's applicable to games, whether you prefer the ultra-low magic approach of many E6 supporters, or the magic-rich environments that I'm partial to. Individually, spells are still capped as normal, effectively removing many problem spells from session-play, while still providing a tool for a GM to partially "uncap" certain things for whatever reason.
I personally happen to think it's an ideal complement to an E6/E8 game. I don't happen to have my copy handy right now, but I seem to recall it also included rules for people working together to create things, as well as magic items in Low/Medium/High magic settings.
You can still buy the pdf version from Your Games now, as well as e23. You might be able to find a print version, but it might take some effort.
An updated version of a bunch of the rules was made freely available. You can download it here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/240200-artificer-handbook-update.html
So where am I going with this?
Well, first of all the Artificer's Handbook will basically provide you with a system for handling magic item creation. With a bit of tweaking, you should be able to set rules into place that require items of a certain sort to be group-created. In other words, magic items above a certain level might still exist in your game, but they're the result of a Wizard's Guild or some other group of like-minded whatevers working together to imbue the necessary magic into an item.
Additionally, the item creation system could basically be extended to spells themselves; or in this case, rituals. Essentially, these things can still be around, you just need to have a Primary caster who winds up being augmented by additional...whatevers.
The whatevers is where things can really come together for you. The Artificer's Handbook has a section on spell components, but it doesn't have to be _that_ simplistic. Essentially what you do is, figure out how much of an additional augmentation (spell slot) an item, component, or other caster is. This augmentation is either going to reduce the number of spell-slots required for an item, or modify the caster's effective level; not having implemented this in a game yet, I can't say which is the best option.
This means you can have rituals that even a single caster _could_ cast, but only if they have the right components, items/fetishes, and possibly time/location. What you're looking to do behind the scenes is tweak the system enough to allow you to have the rituals/items you want, while still keeping item crafting for fun and profit out of your game.
So for example, a ritual might happen to require several special spell components (herbs and body-parts don't tend to last a long time, so it's not like these can be stock-piled easily by a PC), each of which effectively acts to reduce the number of spell slots required. Casting the spell during a full-moon might act to increase the caster's level for purposes of performing the ritual. The location could act as either a caster augmentation, or a spell-slot-requirement reduction. An item such as a wand or some other fetish could act as either an augmentation or a reduction as well.
Taking this approach not only gives you a consistent and relatively easy method for handling rituals/items/spells above a certain level (once you've fleshed out the framework you feel you need) but it becomes much easier to embed this into the game as an adventure or series of adventures. That of course assumes you've got a magically inclined group that doesn't mind this sort of thing.
Now you've got people hunting specific creatures, spells etc that are seasonal (owing to when certain components are available due to plant cycle or possibly creature reprodution or whatever), a time component (full/new moon, holiday, etc), a utensil component ("Dudes, it's gotta be the wand to Hytarki; he's the only mage that successfully created a wand to do this ritual."), and of course the location component ("Necromancy is stronger at the Standing Stones of Latarch") and possibly even a membership ("I gotta get a bunch of the boys from the guild....") component.
Depending on your nature as a GM and the nature of your players, this is the sort of thing that can happen "behind the screen" or you can just let the players have all the information and let them figure out the approach they want to take. And it's a great way of setting up cabals etc that the players might have to deal with as well. Summoning a Demon might take some major mojo, but can you imagine what a cabal augmented by a Demon might be able to create or what sort of spell might be wrought?
And of course, there's the option of having some formal rituals pre-setup; these reflect the rituals/items/whatever that you're willing to allow in your world in a controlled fashion. It might be expensive/inconvienent for a person in the world to perform, but it's "common" enough. Somebody wants to use a spell from some supplement or there's a desire for a "one off" spell for some reason... that goes into the custom side of things and you can make it more difficult as appropriate.
The solution above may not work for everyone, but I think it provides a fairly consistent approach that's applicable to games, whether you prefer the ultra-low magic approach of many E6 supporters, or the magic-rich environments that I'm partial to. Individually, spells are still capped as normal, effectively removing many problem spells from session-play, while still providing a tool for a GM to partially "uncap" certain things for whatever reason.
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