So tell me what is so special about Star Wars Saga Edition?

[sukael]

I think that sums it up pretty well. The SWSE rules work very well for Star Wars. They are far to simplistic for D&D (IMO,YMMV, etc.).

To some degree, the difference is that SWSE supports the "heroic fantasy", "wuxia", and "superhero" game types quite well... without really supporting "gritty fantasy" unless you run it very carefully. Whereas D&D starts in "gritty fantasy" territory, and only gradually shifts into the others...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Also, I've only read the condition summary rules once but they looked broken to me. Can a 1st-level character be forced to make a Fort save because they took six damage from a knife?

Here's how this works in Saga:

You have three Defense scores: Reflex, Will, and Fortitude. Things which used to be saving throws in d20 are now attacks against the various Defenses. So, instead of a poison with DC 15 Fortitude save, you have a poison with a +5 Attack bonus against your Fort Defense. The base value for your Defenses is 10 + Heroic Level. Each class also provides a small, typed bonus to one or more defenses (Jedi is +1 to all three, Soldier is +1 Ref +2 Fort, etc.). Finally, armor replaces your class bonus to Ref defense and occasionally grants a bonus to Fort defense, as well.

There's a derived stat called your Damage Threshold. Your Damage Threshold is equal to your Fort Defense plus any other modifiers: size, Improved Threshold feats, etc.

Normal attack rolls - swords, guns, and the like - are against your Reflex Defense. If they hit, you roll damage.

Then, you compare the damage rolled to your Fort Defense. If it beats it, you go 1 step down the Condition Track. The Condition Track has 6 steps: +0, -1, -2, -5, -10, Unconscious. The penalty applies to all of your attack rolls and skills checks, as well as to your Defenses.

Take a 1st-level Soldier with 10s in every stat. He'll have 30 HP, Ref 11, and Fort 12.

If he gets hit by a blaster for 13 damage, he'll move to the -1 step on the track (and will be at HP 17, Ref 10, Fort 11). If he gets hit for 12 more, he'll move to the -2 step on the track (and will be at HP 5, Ref 9, Fort 10). If, instead of 12, he was hit a second time for 8 points of damage, he'd stay at the -1 step.

It costs three quick actions (so, either a full round's worth of actions all at once or spread out over multiple rounds) to move yourself a step up the Condition Track. There are also other ways to move around the CT: Soldier talents can take you all the way back up, as can Jedi Guardian or Control talents. There's a feat (free bonus feat for Scouts) which reduces the cost to only 2 swift actions.

So, basically, it's almost impossible for a hit with a knife for 6 damage to ever move someone down the Condition Track - unless they're already at the -5 or -10 step, in which case that opponent should have been thinking of ways to get out of the line of fire.

Oh, as for dying: you die when a hit does more damage than your current hit points and exceeds your damage threshold. So, if you have 6 HP left, DT 15, and are hit for 8 points of damage, you just fall unconcious.

 

[Aaron L]

A neat twist is that every four levels, TWO abilities get an increase, instead of just one. But it has to be two separate abilities, you can't "double-bump" one ability score.

You add half your level to all damage rolls; higher level heroes just hit harder. Weather this stays in 4E, I have no idea.

You add your level to AC. Reflex saves are the same as AC. (Reflex Defense, I think it's called.)


I love how classes are put together: They each have a set BAB and saves as in 3.X, but as for class abilities and feats; they all get a feat and class ability selection at alternating levels, every level. The class abilities are picked from several different "trees" for each class, and the feats are chosen from a pool common to all classes. So everyone gets lots of feats, and can totally customize their class abilities.

Take the Jedi class; there are Gaurdian, Consular, Lightsaber Combat, and a few other tress to select class abilities from. It makes it so no two Jedi are the same (unless you specifically set out to make them the same) and every character can be individualized as far as you can think. It makes it so that instead of having a separate class for every little distinction in class abilities you want, you just have to make a different tree for the "overclass" that covers the basic archetype. So maybe for 4E a "Warrior" class could have Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, and Psychic Warrior trees. Maybe a "Magic-User" class could have Wizard, Cleric, and Druid trees.

And even more than that, it could allow for some pretty nifty specializations, like maybe a Duskblade branch for a Warrior class tree, with lighter-than-Wizard spellcasting at the cost of the specialized combat abilities of, say, a straight Fighter-style build. Or maybe a "Fighting Cleric" branch of the "Warrior" with spellcasting at the cost of some combat ability, or maybe make the "Fighting Cleric" branch off of the "Magic-User" by choosing fighting ability at the cost of increased magic use.

Prestige classes are the same, with more powerful class ability trees to choose from, and the same pool of feats. Plus, the way it is in Star Wars Saga, the PrCs are two-tiered; it goes from Jedi Base Class, to Jedi Knight Prestige Class, to Jedi Master "Stage 2" Prestige Class. (The same with Sith, and Soldier/Officer/Commander type classes. Forgive my vagueness, I lent my book out and don't have it handy to reference.)

The concept has interesting possibilities, if they follow through with it for 4E. Fighting Cleric could be a PrC for Warriors after the basics are chosen from the base class trees, and maybe Paladin could be a second stage PrC after that.

I really like that idea of progressing Prestige Classes. I had toyed around with similar tiered PrCs for my homebrew setting. Kind of like the old Dragonlance Crown/Sword/Rose knighthoods. To get to the higher tiers you have to go through the lower ones, but you can progress as far as you want in the lower tiers accumulating class specific abilities and skills before you "graduate" to the "higher" class.

And because of the plethora of class abilities and feats every character has at it's disposal, no two characters need be the same, even moreso even than it is in 3.x. Many different "palettes" of class abilities to choose from instead of fixed "paths" really excites me with the possibilities for D&D classes. Armored magic-user trees, weapon specialization and mastery trees, acrobatic combat trees, psionic, divine, and arcane trees... you name it, they could have anything, judging how they handled it in SWSE. The Lightsaber Form trees alone made me giggle with glee, with all the different 'saber combat form masteries. It was just fun to look at and imagine the possibilities.

And now, imagining building Fighters and Wizards and Bladesingers the same way, maybe with trees for Two Handed Weapon bruisers vs Sword and Board Warriors vs Elegant One Handed Finesse Weapon and One Free Hand... this has the possibility of being REALLY cool.

I just hope it lives up to the possibilities.


But the basic mechanics how the game actually plays are pretty much the same old D20 you know and love (depending on if you love it or not... I do.)


I REALLY like the set-up and the possibilities it implies for 4E. I hope I'm not setting myself up for a fall with all the possibilities I'm thinking up, because I'm thinking up some REALLY COOL possibilities!

Say, a primarily Arcane Magic-User "Wizard" (with abilities from an Arcane Magic tree) with just a touch of Divine grace and miraculous abilities (from a Divine Magic tree) and a few Psionic powers (an ability or two from a Psionic Power tree.)

Hey waitaminnit, isn't that Elminster?!

Or maybe make a "Warrior" with some "Light Arcane Spellcasting" tree class abilities, mixed with some "Single Finesse Weapon with a Free Hand" tree abilities and "Lightly Armored and Dodging" tree abilities and make yourself a nice little Bladesinger (I know I certainly will!)



And finally, wrap it all up with powers and abilities balanced to renew after each combat/encounter, rather than each day, and you get adventurers who keep going and only stop when they need to sleep, instead of going into a dungeon (or hat-have-you) and coming back out to rest for the night after 15 minutes of "hard exploring." I like the sound of that. Like comic books, or fantasy novels. The Wizard can just keep casting and casting and isn't limited to so many spells per day.

But I have absolutely no idea how they'll handle magic, if it will stay Vancian or not. I like Vancian, but wouldn't have a problem with dropping it, modifying it, or having alternatives. The Saga method of handling the Force is really cool.


Anyway, enough of my rambling speculations. My fingers are tired and aching after all this. Hope this wasn't TOO incoherent.

 

[Dyne]

Give an example of where SWSE is arguably more complex than the game that preceded it (SWd20 Revised)?

-You now have to choose talents in addition to skills and feats, when it would've made much more sense to eliminate classes altogether. The separation between feat and talent is very arbitrary.
-A crapload of game mechanics now depend on charts. No more easy range increments, you better keep that equipment chapter handy.
-Half the game has been changed with the errata. Even core mechanics have been changed, such as Force powers targeting damage threshold instead of the defenses (which totally invalidates the whole purpose of the defense system, btw).

Saga is a mess. Two or three years from now (if not sooner), the SWRPG will be in the same position as it was at the end of RCR: a lengthy errata document for a rulebook that doesn't work and looking forward to the next edition.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

-You now have to choose talents in addition to skills and feats, when it would've made much more sense to eliminate classes altogether. The separation between feat and talent is very arbitrary.

Nonheroic and beast characters do not get talents.

-A crapload of game mechanics now depend on charts. No more easy range increments, you better keep that equipment chapter handy.

One game mechanic relies on charts - weapon range increments - unless I'm missing something. Am I missing something?

-Half the game has been changed with the errata. Even core mechanics have been changed, such as Force powers targeting damage threshold instead of the defenses (which totally invalidates the whole purpose of the defense system, btw).

Since DT is equal to your Fort Defense + Bonuses, it does not "invalidate the whole purpose of the defense system."

Moreover, of the changes in the Errata are typo clarifications, stat block fixes, and the like. The substantive rules changes deal with fixing the incorrect weapons chart (the wrong version was printed) and updating the Force Powers to use DT instead of Fort Def (which really means they use Fort Def + Size Bonus).

 

[Eldragon]

So then in 4e, would Prestige classes go away, and instead we get new talent trees with a different flavor?

How does multiclassing between a spellcaster and a melee fighter work? Does SW:SE have the same problem of 3.x where you are woefully underpowered without a prestige class and certain feats?

 

[F4NBOY]

Bad things about SWES:

natural 20 is an automaci critical = duh
no 5ft. step = duh duh
diagonal movement is 2-2-2-2 = that's because too many kids play it and can't do advanced math.

charge is a standard action = what?
withdraw is a move action = WTF?
no iterative attacks, but charatcter can buy feats to get extra attack so it's basically trading 6 for half-dozen.
the focus is on ranged attacks, since full melee attacks are very rare to occur.

second wind mechanic (character can once per day regain all Hit points) was not well thought, since character may only activate it if he has less than half of his total HP, so "just let me cut myself a little... good, I feel completely restored, back to fight!"

There are no touch attacks.

The way saga rules were presented make the game focus too much on cinematic roleplay, and I don't think that would fit too well in D&D.
Paradoxically a good rule introduced in SAGA,that actually makes the combat slower and with more book keeping, is the damage treshold and condition track. Though it's one more number to take care in combat, it makes it a little more realistic, so I think it's a good call for D&D.

 

[Nifft]

SW Saga has Prestige Classes. Some have different Talent trees, but most seem to preserve Talent progression while giving you something else in place of bonus Feats on the even levels.

Also, I love SW Saga's design principles, and I think the execution is pretty darn good too.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So then in 4e, would Prestige classes go away, and instead we get new talent trees with a different flavor?

Possible, but unlikely.

Saga has PrCs which have their own unique Talent trees, as well as sometimes allowing access to a base class's Talent tree.

For instance, the Ace Pilot PrC has its own Expert Pilot and Gunner Talent trees, but also offers access to the Scoundrel's Spacer Talent tree.

So, basically, if you entered Ace Pilot via Soldier, you'd be able to access talents you would only be able to get by multiclassing into Scoundrel.

Additionally, PrCs don't give bonus feats on their even levels. Instead, they offer a particular class ability: Ace Pilots gain Dodge bonuses to starship Ref Defense, Gunslingers gain damage bonuses with pistols, Elite Troopers gain DR, etc.

How does multiclassing between a spellcaster and a melee fighter work? Does SW:SE have the same problem of 3.x where you are woefully underpowered without a prestige class and certain feats?

Well, keeping in mind that there's only the Force in Saga, there's no particular penalty or drawback to multiclassing.

Force Powers are activated by a skill check (Use the Force), and anyone who is Force-sensitive gains Use the Force as a class skill. Since all skills improve at the rate of 1 per 2 levels, a Jedi 4 will have a +2 bonus based on class and a Noble 2 / Scout 2 will have a +2 bonus based on class.

The ability to learn "spells" (Force Powers) is tied to a feat (Force Training; 1 + Wis powers each time you take it) that does not appear on any class's bonus feat list. The only "leg-up" Jedi get is that they start the game with Force Sensitive for free, and so can spend their 1st-level feat on Force Training. Other than that, a pure-classed Soldier can have as many Force Powers as a pure-classed Jedi.

Additionally, there are a number of Force-related talents which any Force-sensitive character can take in place of his or her normal class talents.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Bad things about SWES:

charge is a standard action = what?
withdraw is a move action = WTF?

What's wrong with that? People wanted mobility.

no iterative attacks, but charatcter can buy feats to get extra attack so it's basically trading 6 for half-dozen.

Nobody is likely to buy those feats, as they're a waste of time. Unlike in DnD, your Defenses in SW SAGA don't suck, so iteratives miss a lot.

the focus is on ranged attacks, since full melee attacks are very rare to occur.

I disagree. There are no full attacks. You do damage with your level bonuses, and with the legion of feats that can boost damage of both types.