Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

Why wouldn't you put it on a wand? At 50 charges, that's enough to last through an entire typical campaign(or by the time it does eventually run out, buying or making one is cheap). Besides, DC40 for a lock is still blisteringly high even for Rogues at level 10, so using Knock on a lock like that is still the more favorable option.

Level 10 rogue has for disable device 10 skill ranks +3 for class skill +6 for Dex. bonus, +3 for skill focus, +4 for enchanted lockpicks for a total of +26. He needs a 14 or higher to get a DC 40 lock.

The 10th level wizard who has a wand with a CL 10 Knock spell on his wand has a +20 to his roll. He needs to roll a 20 or higher to open the DC 40 lock.

I know who I would put my money on getting the lock open first.

And then, at level 20 in the same campaign, the rogue now has 20+3 +8+3 +8 (for even better enchanted lockpicks) for a total of +42 to open that lock and the wizard who is still using the same wand has the same +20.
 

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The wizard could craft a 10th level wand and try to open any lock with it, but once he's into DCs of 30 and 40, he's starting to burn off charges at 150 gp a pop. A rogue's investment is a lot cheaper.

Like I said above, that's if for some reason I absolutely have to pick this lock. By the time DC30 and 40 locks start coming into play, Wizards have infinitely better options for getting past locked doors.
 

That said, I find it amusing this topic went from "Post your problems with Pathfinder" to nitpicking the problem I posted with Pathfinder(namely, casters being stupidly overpowered) and trying to justify why it's not a problem(at level 1, tellingly no one's tried to justify why a level 8+ caster isn't that good)

What do you expect? People make their criticisms as if they're some sort of truisms that follow inevitably from the rules of the game when really they depend on a lot of assumed conditions. So of course refutations come up.
 

Level 10 rogue has for disable device 10 skill ranks +3 for class skill +6 for Dex. bonus, +3 for skill focus, +4 for enchanted lockpicks for a total of +26. He needs a 14 or higher to get a DC 40 lock.

The 10th level wizard who has a wand with a CL 10 Knock spell on his wand has a +20 to his roll. He needs to roll a 20 or higher to open the DC 40 lock.

I know who I would put my money on getting the lock open first.

And, for the third time, by the time DC40 locks start showing up, Wizards have better ways of bypassing the doors, ESPECIALLY at the level 10 example you've given(like casting Passwall on the door or wall by the door or summoning a Wooly Rhinocerous to bash the door down)
 

If I absolutely have to pick the lock, yes. Ideally I'd rather just summon something to bash it down, or disintegrate the door or something.

Since we have settled on a level 10 party, they won't get disintegrate for another level.

And since when is bashing open a stout door faster than picking the lock? And summoning? You take a full round to cast the spell and chances are pretty good the rogue already has the door open.

No - the rogue is going to shine in this example I think.

And again, you are assuming a wizard with full access to all his most powerful spells. In a party running away from something.
 

People make their criticisms as if they're some sort of truisms that follow inevitably from the rules of the game when really they depend on a lot of assumed conditions. So of course refutations come up.

The problem comes when my assumed condition is "The Wizard player knows how to play the game," and when the refutation is "No, as long as the Wizard never goes above level 1 and isn't allowed to prepare his spells, he's totally not so good."
 


I won't deny you can fiat ways for characters to be useful(though I find having to fiat a character into usefulness to speak volumes for itself already). The problem is, in your average campaign, pretty much any spellcaster will beat out using anything else 99% of the time.

That hasn't been my experience, particularly if you make them keep track of spell components and such, for the spellcasters that need them.

Even if I was running a game for a group of fighters and spellcasters only, I would still throw in a lot of things that don't revolve around either skillset. I like for players to have challenges that fall outside their comfort zone. I don't really have any problem giving characters with special skills a chance to use those skills, either. As I mentioned earlier, I don't run modules, and I leave most of my adventures open-ended to accommodate things like that. Even though there are individual adventures, there is a strong sandbox component to a lot of them.

When I encounter players who want to play a character who is far outside the norm, I encourage them to do so. There is absolutely no reason that a character in one of my campaigns has to have spellcasting or combat abilities. I heavily reward roleplaying, and it doesn't ruin an adventure if the characters decide to not pursue the "bad guy," or decide to abandon their initial goals. I keep a lot of different encounters and adventures prepared, so if we get in a game that's set in the north and they decide to go south instead I can adapt to it on the fly.

From the player side, I once played a highly eccentric dirt farmer in a typical slash-and-cast campaign. He had no formal education, no real fighting skills, no spellcasting ability, and had no interest in treasure, magic items, weapons, etc. He primarily just liked to wander around, scratch in the dirt, and do some exploring. I created him as a challenge to myself, to see if I could play a character like that and still contribute to the campaign. The DM saw some potential in that and allowed it. The character ended up being a major driving force behind the adventure due to his tendency to focus and explore things that other characters had no interest in. The way I played him resulted in a character who was very good at rooting up obscure clues and bits of information, simply because he was nosy and didn't know the "proper way" to do such things. Like a child, he asked questions and played around with things that were considered inconsequential to most adults.

The campaigns I run are more akin to novels than video games. There is not always a single goal and a big bad guy to defeat at the end. Even when there is, the devil is in the details, and most details in my games have nothing to do with spellcasting or combat.

To use a comic book analogy, there is as much chance of Hawkeye gaining experience and being a contributor to the campaign as Iron Man or Thor.
 

That said, I find it amusing this topic went from "Post your problems with Pathfinder" to nitpicking the problem I posted with Pathfinder(namely, casters being stupidly overpowered) and trying to justify why it's not a problem(at level 1, tellingly no one's tried to justify why a level 8+ caster isn't that good)
As a wise man once said: "Reading between the lines stops being useful when you ignore the lines themselves while looking for something between them that may or may not be there."
 


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