D&D 5E So... what happened during the playtests?

Sometimes I wonder if it's because people are too combat-focused? And by this I mean combat as a sport (vs combat as war). The ranger may not be able to go toe to toe with a paladin (for example)... but she can help you set up a murderous ambush that will wipe out your foes.

My experience is the ranger gets a lot of love because it can do a little bit of everything: Fighting styles like a fighter, stealth and hiding, tracking, and spell casting. It's a class you can do a lot with, and honestly, a very small percentage of players I've ever played with cared more about losing a few percentage points of optimum damage than the cool factor. The latter wins out pretty much every time.
 

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DO NOT! use that word round here.

What word? 'Warlord'? We shouldn't use 'Warlord' around here? Okay! Sounds good! No using the word 'Warlord' around here! You hear that, everyone? No using 'Warlord'! 'Warlord' is verboten! If we hear anyone using the word 'Warlord', there will be hell to pay!

;)
 

What word? 'Warlord'? We shouldn't use 'Warlord' around here? Okay! Sounds good! No using the word 'Warlord' around here! You hear that, everyone? No using 'Warlord'! 'Warlord' is verboten! If we hear anyone using the word 'Warlord', there will be hell to pay!

;)
Oh you made the mistake of listing your location! I will drop several circles of death until I'm sure I have killed you!
 

Fortunately, Mike Mearls has told us a little bit about the process. I'm not going to spend an hour and a half attempting to find the articles and quotes
They've all been taken down, anyway...

When determining what to include, they look at how popular something is, but they also look at how unpopular it is.
Not anything I ever recall them saying leading up to or during the playtest. The emphasis was on making a D&D for everyone who every loved D&D, not a D&D inoffensive to D&D's loudest detractors. Cutting things that a sub-set of people wanted to deprive others of is no way to create an inclusive environment.

If anything, in 'The Gnome Effect,' Mearls outlined the opposite philosophy: that if even 10% of players might be disappointed by lack of an options, that'd statistically impact about half of 5-player tables.

With those, most people said the Runecaster worked fairly well, but a lot of those same people (I believe it was either 40% or 60% of all respondents to the survey) said they do not want prestige classes in the game (including the Runecaster).
And this is just nonsense, given 5e's modular approach. I may hate spellpoints, I might have nothing to do with a D&D that enshrines them in the core rules and makes them difficult to extract, but, there's a system like that in the DMG, and I'm free to just ignore it. 5e is meant to be customizable and adaptable to any style or 'creative agenda' - it is not meant to validate one preference over others, even if it is the largest preference according to this survey or that vocal segment of the community.


I suspect this is exactly what came about with "Damage On A Miss". Same thing might be with Prestige Classes as you say. At some point, if the disdain is really that strong... you're just better off going back to the drawing board to come up with something better than to continue down a path that enough people already hate.
It could also explain why the warlord didn't make it either.
Or Psionics, I suppose.

But, I suspect a lot of considerations when into cutting things with as much potential as PrCs or the Warlord (or any non-DPR-focused martial sub-class, for that matter). One of the big ones that Mr Mearls went back to over and over again throughout the playtest, though, was 'classic feel.' Another had to be the difficulty of actually developing content. D&D doesn't have the kind of development resources it used to. If a particularly project gave him trouble (and he expressed having difficulty with the Fighter, Warlord, Sorcerer, and Ranger at various times), he couldn't just delegate it to a team of 10 for extensive playtesting & re-design. A genuinely versatile/interesting (thus highly complex) martial option, whether literally a fighter (which would have meant putting even /more/ of the class into the sub-classes) or an actual Warlord would have been both difficult to design, and would have to have been entirely novel, since it couldn't just leverage a lot of existing spells, for instance. Building on the playtest Sorcerer would have been a lot more work than just creating a somewhat different casting mechanic, re-tooling metamagic, and picking a new spell list from those of other classes (literally, the Sorcerer is the only caster with no spell at all unique to itself).

Anyway, just some speculative alternatives to the lowest-common-denominator theory of cutting potentially great stuff from 5e.

DO NOT! use that word round here.
The Temporary Warlord Forum has been folded back into the 5e board.

What word? 'Warlord'? We shouldn't use 'Warlord' around here? Okay! Sounds good! No using the word 'Warlord' around here! You hear that, everyone? No using 'Warlord'! 'Warlord' is verboten! If we hear anyone using the word 'Warlord', there will be hell to pay!
Though, of course, Morrus could always bring the Warlord Discussion Ghetto back....
 
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Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I'd hardly include 3e as an "early edition concept". The game was out for 25 years before 3e came along. Early edition concepts to me usually mean the first 1-20% of the game's life cycle or so. I also don't think the focus of 5e was on old school players either. That was part of the mission statement, but only a smaller part. Think about it, OSR players only make up a small % of D&D players. I think they wanted to bring back as many players as possible, from every edition, and find what design concepts allowed them to get the max total of players. I would say out of all the gaming groups who played D&D, the biggest group were the 3e players who went to PF, not the OSR group, and that's who the design team wanted to bring back the most. And 3e is not "old school".
I was on the fence about including 3E, because 3.5 had much more complexity or choices.
 

My experience is the ranger gets a lot of love because it can do a little bit of everything: Fighting styles like a fighter, stealth and hiding, tracking, and spell casting. It's a class you can do a lot with, and honestly, a very small percentage of players I've ever played with cared more about losing a few percentage points of optimum damage than the cool factor. The latter wins out pretty much every time.

It's true that it's almost a complete adventuring party in one character. A ranger can significantly contribute to multiple endeavors.
 

It's true that it's almost a complete adventuring party in one character. A ranger can significantly contribute to multiple endeavors.

One of my players is playing a (hunter) ranger, and he loves it. He's always loved playing an archer, and the ranger really compliments that.
 

One of my players is playing a (hunter) ranger, and he loves it. He's always loved playing an archer, and the ranger really compliments that.

Yeah, i'd guess many people do. It is some of the fans of the "old" class (1E and 2E) like me that dislike it.

.....But, I suspect a lot of considerations when into cutting things with as much potential as PrCs or the Warlord (or any non-DPR-focused martial sub-class, for that matter). One of the big ones that Mr Mearls went back to over and over again throughout the playtest, though, was 'classic feel.' Another had to be the difficulty of actually developing content. D&D doesn't have the kind of development resources it used to. If a particularly project gave him trouble (and he expressed having difficulty with the Fighter, Warlord, Sorcerer, and Ranger at various times), he couldn't just delegate it to a team of 10 for extensive playtesting & re-design. A genuinely versatile/interesting (thus highly complex) martial option, whether literally a fighter (which would have meant putting even /more/ of the class into the sub-classes) or an actual Warlord would have been both difficult to design, and would have to have been entirely novel, since it couldn't just leverage a lot of existing spells, for instance.....
That would explain lots of things. It also emphasizes why i regret not being around for the entirety of the play test. Is there some archive, somewhere that an enthusiast can find all the play tests together in? I am most curious into all the concepts they experimented with, especially the martial ones (being a strong propagator of the martial variants of current hybrids).
 

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