D&D 5E So... what happened during the playtests?

That would explain lots of things. It also emphasizes why i regret not being around for the entirety of the play test. Is there some archive, somewhere that an enthusiast can find all the play tests together in? I am most curious into all the concepts they experimented with, especially the martial ones (being a strong propagator of the martial variants of current hybrids).
Not that I'm aware of.

The went through several iterations of 'Martial Damage Dice.' The idea was a pool of dice that you could spend to perform a maneuver or to add damage to an attack. They provided damage scaling instead of multiple attacks, which was a more robust approach (multi-attacking has proven very susceptible to powergaming from 1eUA/2e Weapon Specialists on). Two problems manifested with it. One, D&D combat boiling down, as it always has, to a race to 0 hps made just using the MDD for damage most of the time too dogmatically optimal (not really, if the combat rules had enough tactical depth, but they were also going for fast combat). Two, once the fighter was given MDDs, it immediately became apparent that other melee-capable classes also 'needed' them, and they became a system feature rather than a fighter class feature - a phenomenon that has killed a lot of proposed fighter features over the decade. Instead they went back to 1e/2e attacks/round for the fighter, and paladin and ranger and war cleric and valor bard and even bladesinger...

...yeah.
 

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Instead they went back to 1e/2e attacks/round for the fighter, and paladin and ranger and war cleric and valor bard and even bladesinger...

...yeah.

I like the idea behind the MDD because 'extra attack' has always been an aspect of the game that has never 'sat right' with me. In game it's "your 20 STR, 10 DEX Fighter can swing their giant sword more times than an 20 STR, 14 DEX Barbarian can? Or more times than a 20 DEX Rogue can stab their little dagger?". Out of game it just encourages focus on increasing the +MOD damage (cue the GWM/SS feat complaints...).

I've never honestly seen a system that's better per se, and I'm definitely not clamoring for them to change it or to do away with Extra Attack, but I do wish they had found a way to make the MDD work.
 

I like the idea behind the MDD because 'extra attack' has always been an aspect of the game that has never 'sat right' with me. In game it's "your 20 STR, 10 DEX Fighter can swing their giant sword more times than an 20 STR, 14 DEX Barbarian can? Or more times than a 20 DEX Rogue can stab their little dagger?". Out of game it just encourages focus on increasing the +MOD damage (cue the GWM/SS feat complaints...).

I've never honestly seen a system that's better per se, and I'm definitely not clamoring for them to change it or to do away with Extra Attack, but I do wish they had found a way to make the MDD work.

Well, I think it's supposed to represent that when you reach a certain level of experience, more of your swings are susceptible to hit true. Remember, in combat, there's constant attacks, parries, feints, and the like going on. Attack rolls abd damage rolls represent the damage you can do, the hits that actually mean anything. Each attack roll doesn't represent one swing.
 

Well, I think it's supposed to represent that when you reach a certain level of experience, more of your swings are susceptible to hit true. Remember, in combat, there's constant attacks, parries, feints, and the like going on. Attack rolls abd damage rolls represent the damage you can do, the hits that actually mean anything. Each attack roll doesn't represent one swing.

Sure, and that's generally how I narrate it. And it holds true for a wizard versus a fighter, for example. It's just a disconnect between the different martial characters that I was referring to. Does a barbarian have less experience, or a paladin less training? Does their base class ultimately mean 'never be as good as fighting as a fighter, even though they both make a living swinging a sword'? It's always been an issue with martial classes - how to you make them different enough to be separate classes, but make them even enough that there needs to be different classes? The answer came back: Extra Attack and, sadly, Magic~!!!

The idea that barbarians, wild warriors without martial training do more damage but hit less often, represented by better base damage or bigger MDD but fewer attacks was kind of a cool way to think about it; a way that was ultimately abandoned in favor of just giving the fighter more swings.

D&D is ultimately a game, and a poor 'reality' simulator. I'm not asking it to be, but I thought the idea behind the MDD came closer to simulating 'real' class differences in combat than "eh, more attacks or maybe add some magic".
 

I like the idea behind the MDD because 'extra attack' has always been an aspect of the game that has never 'sat right' with me.
It made a lot more sense in 1e & earlier, when the melee round was a full minute long! (Like a 'round' in boxing.)
In game it's "your 20 STR, 10 DEX Fighter can swing their giant sword more times than an 20 STR, 14 DEX Barbarian can? Or more times than a 20 DEX Rogue can stab their little dagger?". Out of game it just encourages focus on increasing the +MOD damage (cue the GWM/SS feat complaints...).
I have no problem with it, conceptually (perhaps because I started with Basic & 1e and one-minute rounds), but mechanically it does have that issue with static damage bonuses.

I've never honestly seen a system that's better per se, and I'm definitely not clamoring for them to change it or to do away with Extra Attack, but I do wish they had found a way to make the MDD work.
A good solution, (that was used in a Gamma World power and never seen again, BTW) is to allow multiple attacks, but have each hit inflict +1d of damage against the target instead of the full die+bonuses. So hitting 3 times with a d10+15+2d6 weapon attack would be 3d10+15+2d6, not 3d10+45+6d6, but hitting three different targets would be 1d10+15+2d6 vs each. Mid-high level 5e combat would slow down significantly and several classes would be brutally nerfed by a change like that, though.

Does a barbarian have less experience, or a paladin less training?
Probably the Barbarian has less training, and the paladin is less pragmatic.
Does their base class ultimately mean 'never be as good as fighting as a fighter, even though they both make a living swinging a sword'?
Yes. The 5e concept of the fighter includes 'best' at fighting (with weapons, before considering magic).

It's always been an issue with martial classes - how to you make them different enough to be separate classes, but make them even enough that there needs to be different classes? The answer came back: Extra Attack and, sadly, Magic~!!!
Not so sadly, though, those answers are evocative of the classic game. Though the 'magic' in that case was random treasure charts weighted towards magic items they'd find useful.
 
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And this is just nonsense, given 5e's modular approach. I may hate spellpoints, I might have nothing to do with a D&D that enshrines them in the core rules and makes them difficult to extract, but, there's a system like that in the DMG, and I'm free to just ignore it. 5e is meant to be customizable and adaptable to any style or 'creative agenda' - it is not meant to validate one preference over others, even if it is the largest preference according to this survey or that vocal segment of the community.

I'm not sure if you mean the philosophy is nonsense, of that you doubt my claim that such a thing was said. The most direct recent example is here but there is evidence of the philosophy scattered throughout the entire playtest and 5e era.

"We’re definitely seeing mixed responses to the concept. Of those of you who played third edition D&D, nearly 90% of you used prestige classes. However, overall support for them fell short of those marks. Just short of 60% of players want to use them in fifth edition. It’s interesting to see that while prestige classes saw a lot of use, many players didn’t particularly like the concept. It’s definitely something for us to consider as we examine the concept for fifth edition."

...
Anyway, just some speculative alternatives to the lowest-common-denominator theory of cutting potentially great stuff from 5e.

(By the way, I don't actually disagree with the elements you mentioned being considerations.)

While "lowest common denominator" has a negative connotation to it, when we simply say what it actually means: Not alienating your customers--it seems like there is something kind of intelligent going on in decisions.

On another thread recently I discussed the idea of whether one considers imposition or deprivation a bigger deal. In my opinion I'd rather be deprived that imposed on. I don't have any numbers for which percentage of the population leans which way, or exactly what methods can be used to try to keep as many customers as possible. But here are some thoughts.

Out of the types of content a minority of people want, some of it is an imposition on other players, and some of it isn't.

Take some examples of things that only relatively small numbers of players have ever used, but that are innocuous to everyone else's experience: spell points, AC as DR, lasers. The vast majority of players never use these. But nobody's game is negatively affected because a few pages were used somewhere. When you game with new people, virtually no one assumes those are going to be in use. They don't build a wizard and get surprised when the DM tells them he isn't using spell points, or you can't create a space marine character from Krynn, or whatever.

But the contentious things are contentious because exactly the opposite is true: other people have their games at least indirectly affected by the content being there in the game.

I talked about the magic item economy and wealth by level, but the same thing applies to a lot of other things, most of which can start an argument if brought up more than 2 times in a thread, so I'm not going to make a list.

But 3e is a virtual case study. The game completely changed from the time the PHB came out until the final products were hitting the shelves. Any time you met other players who weren't brand new, it was a pretty likely guess that their image of the game included heavy use of prestige classes and level dipping build-your-own-class style multiclassing. This wasn't the game you got when the 3.0 PHB came off the shelves. It took the DMG's introduction of prestige classes to gradually set off the unstoppable juggernaut.

Now, for those that like that (and I used to enjoy it myself--there is nothing wrong with it), that's cool. For those who liked 3e without that stuff, the way the game entirely changed impacts their play experience (as well as product experience). Later books were so chocked full of prestige classes that if you took them out they would have been pamphlets.

While DMs were always free to disallow something in their own games, unless they never met any other experienced gamers, and didn't buy any products, they couldn't avoid having that sort of thing imposed on their D&D experience. It isn't as simple as "don't use it if you don't like it." It changes the entire shared conception of the edition and the assumptions included in products you are considering purchasing.

I submit that there are a high enough percentage of 5e players who enjoy that style of play, that if those sorts of elements are introduced to 5e the game experience for everyone will change due to it, and that there are a high enough percentage of 5e players who are strongly opposed to having the game experience change in that manner, that customers will be lost by such changes. (If there were little opposition to those features, or if inclusion of such features would draw in more new players than it would lose old ones, then it would be the best business decision to include them. I doubt that is the situation, however. Those who don't want such features seem to be the strongest fans of 5e.)
 

I'm not sure if you mean the philosophy is nonsense, of that you doubt my claim that such a thing was said.
The former, given the fact that 5e is specifically designed to be modular and provide many options for the DM. The idea that a segment of the fanbase 'not wanting something in the game' - that is, actively want it excluded so others will not have it as an option - is nonsense when the game is designed to provide options, not dictate OneTrueWay to play. If 60% want PrCs, and some fraction of the remaining 20% don't want them to even have them as an option, that minority opinion is irrelevant. Don't want to use an obscure module buried in a non-core supplement, don't use it.

While "lowest common denominator" has a negative connotation to it, when we simply say what it actually means: Not alienating your customers--it seems like there is something kind of intelligent going on in decisions.
"Not alienating your customers" has been used as an excuse for open discrimination in the past. It's not a valid rationalization. It is at odds with the spirit in which 5e was conceived.

On another thread recently I discussed the idea of whether one considers imposition or deprivation a bigger deal. In my opinion I'd rather be deprived that imposed on.
Removing something from the game is /both/ depriving the people who wanted it of having that thing, /and/ imposing on them the mode of play possible without it. Including it does not impose /anything/ upon those who don't want it, they simply don't use it. Remember, at this late stage, anything and everything added to the game is necessarily opt-in optional. Nor is it depriving them of anything.

Out of the types of content a minority of people want, some of it is an imposition on other players, and some of it isn't.
False. 5e is modular in design, the standard game is out, anything added will be strictly opt-in optional and will not be imposed on anyone.

Take some examples of things that only relatively small numbers of players have ever used, but that are innocuous to everyone else's experience: spell points, AC as DR, lasers.
Spell points are hardly inoccuous, in the past, they were a notoriously broken variant. Lasers are genre-busting, as well. 'Imposing' those things would have been intolerable to some players. But they weren't imposed, they're optional. Just like PrCs, psionics, new feats or new classes would be.

But the contentious things are contentious because exactly the opposite is true: other people have their games at least indirectly affected by the content being there in the game.
How? There's an option for psionics sitting in UA right now? Anyone who doesn't like it, isn't using it. Killing a few trees to put it between the covers of some supplement won't change that.

But 3e is a virtual case study.
3e was a game with a completely different publication model and attitude from 5e's - and a completely different zeitgeist in the community at the time. Yeah, RAW and officialness were all-important in the 3e era, and the official RAW game was always changing, while some DMs ciricled their wagons around the Core and played only that. The idea you could just and pick and choose - or horrors of Oberoni - selectively change the rule, was not broadly accepted. In 5e, the game is intentionally developed to be modular, to use DM rulings over 'official' RAW, and to be highly customizable.

I submit that there are a high enough percentage of 5e players who enjoy that style of play, that if those sorts of elements are introduced to 5e the game experience for everyone will change due to it, and that there are a high enough percentage of 5e players who are strongly opposed to having the game experience change in that manner, that customers will be lost by such changes.
5e gives DMs the opportunity to run in the style they like, and 5e players the opportunity to sort themselves into groups who play under DMs with a compatible style. No one will be 'forced' to use anything new added to the game.

Now, what AL adopts as their standard might reasonably be subject to such concerns, since it is closer to a one-size-fits-all proposition.
 
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The real reason some options have not yet been included in the game have a lot to do with time space.

Some things the designers might not have worked out all the bugs, or not quite completed. Or they might not have been able to devote the time to develop yet. They had to go with the most core, popular, easiest to work out, or most necessary. Whatever.

Some things might not have been able to fit within the allotted pages for a product. Add another 64 or 128 pages to the book, prices have to go up, both for development and printing costs.

Hopefully, we will eventually see more options for the game.
 

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