So what happened to arcane and divine characters?

[Klaus]

Aha! Sorry for the delay, it seems that ENWorld is running very slow for me.

Two responses: first, for clerics, I miss the various healing of status effects, but then I saw that for the most part, there just aren't long term status effects other than disease, which is handled by a ritual (is that correct?). Still, I think it makes for a less interesting game to get rid of those sorts of things. Rapid healing of hit points doesn't bother me, since I have always considered them to be a sort of "encounter based" resource, but I find it less interesting that poison, curses, blindness and so on are gone. That's just my preference, I suppose.

Outside of that, I like utility spells, the mendings, make whole, stone shape, shatter ... that sort of thing.

For wizards, it seems like transmutation, alternation, conjuration (summoning), divination and necromancy spells are mostly gone, and abjuration spells have been reduced to round/turn duration. Very interesting, but less exciting both in and out of combat.

The second point: I think the question of "what does a fighter do outside of combat," is an excellent one, and it's what I suppose the designers were thinking. My reaction would be that they will have something do to when they're given it, much like all the powers they have in 4E for combat, non-combat powers sound like a no-brainer to include.

It's strange, but there seems to be the possibility for a whole series of books with crunch on what characters can do outside of combat, which is a sort of strange situation, isn't it?

Again, just my opinions, and my not overly informed opinions at that, so they're subject to change...

--Steve

Rituals is what you're missing.

For levels 1-3, you have Animal Messenger, Comprehend Language, Gentle Repose, Magic Mouth, Make Whole, Secret Page, Silence, Tenser's Floating Disk, Endure Elements, Eye of Alarm, Water Walk and Detect Secret Doors.

For those who can use Rituals, a ritual book is as important as a spellbook was for a wizard/mage/magic-user of previous editions.

 

[mattdm]

Rituals is what you're missing.

For levels 1-3, you have Animal Messenger, Comprehend Language, Gentle Repose, Magic Mouth, Make Whole, Secret Page, Silence, Tenser's Floating Disk, Endure Elements, Eye of Alarm, Water Walk and Detect Secret Doors.

I've totally downed the 4E kool-aid, but I gotta say, it's fair to say the current number of rituals (and utility powers) is underwhelming at best.

And with the rest of 2008 looking kinda sparse in this area (manual of the planes will have some, but how general purpose will they be?), it's going to be a year or two before "look at the rituals!" is really a satisfying answer.

I also hope (without really playtesting enough to see how it works out in practice, but...) we see some feats which increase the number of utility powers known.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

So far this is my only complaint about 4e. It feels incomplete. I really like what they have done with the math, with the rebalance of the classes, with just about everything. I just wish that there was a more complete set of special effects. They will come, and I will be much happier playing 4e without them than I would 3.x with them, but I can't wait to see all the stuff from 3.x that can reasonably fit into 4e. I am sure fan creatiions will abound, but the lists I have seen so far have been a little underwhelming.

 

[dunbruha]

Why have a rogue when you can cast discern lies, spider climb or find traps? Why have warriors at all when, after 5th level or so, casters outstrip them in damage output to ridiculous extremes?

Um, because they're fun to play? Because you have a character concept that fits that class? Because you want to play an "ordinary" character who is skilled at what he does, not a "super-hero" character with "Powers"?

 

[Klaus]

I've totally downed the 4E kool-aid, but I gotta say, it's fair to say the current number of rituals (and utility powers) is underwhelming at best.

And with the rest of 2008 looking kinda sparse in this area (manual of the planes will have some, but how general purpose will they be?), it's going to be a year or two before "look at the rituals!" is really a satisfying answer.

I also hope (without really playtesting enough to see how it works out in practice, but...) we see some feats which increase the number of utility powers known.

I'm sure the DDI will have more Rituals.

And maybe there'll be a few in FR, in August.

 

[mattdm]

Um, because they're fun to play? Because you have a character concept that fits that class? Because you want to play an "ordinary" character who is skilled at what he does, not a "super-hero" character with "Powers"?

And that's particularly fun to do while the other player with a character which does have super-hero powers does your shtick better than you, then fireballs all the mooks and disintegrates the archnemesis. Yay roleplaying!

 

[Zil]

And that's particularly fun to do while the other player with a character which does have super-hero powers does your shtick better than you, then fireballs all the mooks and disintegrates the archnemesis. Yay roleplaying!

You know, in our 3.x games we usually found that it was the fighters (and sometimes rogues working with said fighters) who usually took out the arch-nemesis - at just about all levels. Of course they had help from the arcane and divine casters at getting to the arch-nemesis (via fly spells, buffs, clearing away of minions with area of effect spells, etc). I really don't buy this complaint about fighters in 3.x. I think people must have been playing a very different game from what we were.