So, what is "4th Edition's Tomb of Horrors"?

[kaomera]

Sphere is already in the DMG; so they might need it to call it something else. Am not sure I want a return to death saves, but perhaps something along a good deal of intial damage and perhaps ongoing necrotic enough to kill people in a round or two would do the trick.

You could use the Sphere from the DMG, leveled appropriately. Since many players will have heard of this trap (always been a problem, really) you could change it up by having a group of monsters enter the area as the PCs are studying the thing. Each holds a strange talisman, and as they approach the sphere starts moving up behind the PCs...

 

[Holy Bovine]

I
I would much rather see White Plume Mountain, Barrier Peaks, or Land Beyond the Magic Mirror. These modules were all very creative and pushed the genre.

Now these three would make a kick ass campaign arc.


I think I'm only 1/4 kidding too!

 

[Holy Bovine]

4e basically nullifies any interest one could have in running Tomb of Horrors.

The module is antithetic to the rules' set core design tenets. Anyone saying otherwise either hasn't played the real thing or is just completely deluded into somehow thinking that ToH was designed for special snowflakes, which it wasn't.

Ahhhh I warm my hands over the burning rage within you. C'mon dude, ease off a little, eh?

 

[jdrakeh]

I would much rather see White Plume Mountain, Barrier Peaks, or Land Beyond the Magic Mirror. These modules were all very creative and pushed the genre.

I wouldn't mind seeing new editions of White Plume Mountain and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, but Land Beyond the Magic Mirror is practically the anithesis of creativity (mainly because it's just Lewis Carroll's seminal fantasy work statted up for D&D).

 

[Mouseferatu]

Hey, folks. Back from GenCon, exhausted as all heck, and my feet are in more pain than I would think possible with a mere 10 toes and two heels. (I committed the cardinal GenCon sin of only bringing new shoes with me. )

But I wanted to chime in on this. See, Andy Collins gave me permission to share one (and only one) piece of specific information on the 4EToH. And that is this:

The reason that it has such a wide level range is that it's not a single, play-all-the-way-through-and-stop adventure, the way most published adventure products are. Rather, it's meant to be spread out throughout the length of a campaign, as an ongoing plot arc to which the PCs return time and again. For instance, they might play through the events of the first part at one level, then gain a handful of levels via completely uninvolved adventures*. Then, they experience something that draws them back into the ongoing plot, and go through the second part of the book, and so forth, learning more about the ultimate schemes and objectives of our villain during each step.

*I say "uninvolved adventures," but the DM can certainly choose to link them to the ongoing ToH plotline if he wishes.

So ultimately, it's less a single adventure than a number of linked adventures that form a recurring plotline, much like you'll see villains and plot points recur in a TV series. (The Shadow involvement in Babylon 5, for instance.)

 

[fireinthedust]

I'm going to have to wade in and agree with the folks backing 4e ToH.

RttToH was a long-time plan of mine to run. I love the idea of trap-filled dungeons. They're just plain cool. I love puzzles as well as working with a team to overcome challenges.

I think the 2e version was fantastic, and I found it more interesting than playing through the Convention module. I remember going through something like 6 doors with darts, and that with a 2e Drizzt clone, no trap-finder, no mage. Reading over the traps, it was... well, not as challenging as it could have been, if the right resources were there.
Then there are the stupid pre-reqs: you have to be this class with this sword to harm the Demi-Lich?! That's silly.
Not only that, but have you ever considered Grimtooth's in play? Those traps aren't skillful, they're shooting fish in a barrel. That's the original module as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's ToH's fault that Demi-Lich means Uber-Lich rather than "minor form of lich". Ignorance-creep? Confusion?

2e by Cordell was excellent. I had friends who made it to the Brine Dragon, and loved it. The traps, the frozen Moilian Dead, all that stuff. That's the classic stuff.

I think for a 4e module I'd prefer the trap-styles like from Dungeon Delves. The Gnoll Sand Trap (4th level?) was excellent, and made for a fun encounter. The filling-up-with-water room in one module I read (forget which one) is also a great trap.
I don't care what they call it, but a massive dungeon filled with 4e traps would be my cup of tea.

Lethality in 4e: well, there is a point there. I don't think save-or-die is the answer. The trick will be raising the stakes:

1) threaten the treasure packets: if the PCs don't solve the puzzle, Godzilla eats the packet to be found. This can be done also with NPCs (like the princess).

2) Send them to a dangerous room via teleport if they fail; they have to fight their way through this new area, and either try again or keep on going. Repitition is generally bad, unless they desperately want another crack at that blasted Medusa.


Anyway, if you want a convention module that really looks fun, check out the 3e Crypt of the Devil-Lich, by Goodman Games. I think it's superior to the actual 12 pages of ToH, in terms of playability. Most of their works are, really, and that was the intent.

 

[doctorhook]

Hey, folks. Back from GenCon, exhausted as all heck, and my feet are in more pain than I would think possible with a mere 10 toes and two heels. (I committed the cardinal GenCon sin of only bringing new shoes with me. )

But I wanted to chime in on this. See, Andy Collins gave me permission to share one (and only one) piece of specific information on the 4EToH. And that is this:

The reason that it has such a wide level range is that it's not a single, play-all-the-way-through-and-stop adventure, the way most published adventure products are. Rather, it's meant to be spread out throughout the length of a campaign, as an ongoing plot arc to which the PCs return time and again. For instance, they might play through the events of the first part at one level, then gain a handful of levels via completely uninvolved adventures*. Then, they experience something that draws them back into the ongoing plot, and go through the second part of the book, and so forth, learning more about the ultimate schemes and objectives of our villain during each step.

*I say "uninvolved adventures," but the DM can certainly choose to link them to the ongoing ToH plotline if he wishes.

So ultimately, it's less a single adventure than a number of linked adventures that form a recurring plotline, much like you'll see villains and plot points recur in a TV series. (The Shadow involvement in Babylon 5, for instance.)

That sounds like an awesome way to use a mega-adventure! I hope it works out as well as it sounds, I hope they keep it up, and I hope Mr Collins gives you permission to talk about more stuff!

 

[TrainedMunkee]

Beyond the Mirror wasn't terribly creative, but wasn't your typical delve and was very memorable. I redid White Plume for 3e and my players loved it. None of them had played it before, most started with 2e.

Land Beyond the Magic Mirror is practically the anithesis of creativity (mainly because it's just Lewis Carroll's seminal fantasy work statted up for D&D).

 

[jdrakeh]

I redid White Plume for 3e and my players loved it. None of them had played it before, most started with 2e.

You could have saved yourself some bother.

 

[TrainedMunkee]

You could have saved yourself some bother.

It was 3e, my first conversion as soon it came out, not 3.5. I actually liked 3e. I diverge.

Barrier Peaks will probably never happen. I would hate to see my party's Ranger with a laser.

If this version of TOH is like past versions, the party's trapfinder is going to be kept very busy.

The returning idea is very good. The farther that we have gotten into 4e, the more I have become impressed with the developers.