So, what is "4th Edition's Tomb of Horrors"?

[Jack99]

Hey, folks. Back from GenCon, exhausted as all heck, and my feet are in more pain than I would think possible with a mere 10 toes and two heels. (I committed the cardinal GenCon sin of only bringing new shoes with me. )

But I wanted to chime in on this. See, Andy Collins gave me permission to share one (and only one) piece of specific information on the 4EToH. And that is this:

The reason that it has such a wide level range is that it's not a single, play-all-the-way-through-and-stop adventure, the way most published adventure products are. Rather, it's meant to be spread out throughout the length of a campaign, as an ongoing plot arc to which the PCs return time and again. For instance, they might play through the events of the first part at one level, then gain a handful of levels via completely uninvolved adventures*. Then, they experience something that draws them back into the ongoing plot, and go through the second part of the book, and so forth, learning more about the ultimate schemes and objectives of our villain during each step.

*I say "uninvolved adventures," but the DM can certainly choose to link them to the ongoing ToH plotline if he wishes.

So ultimately, it's less a single adventure than a number of linked adventures that form a recurring plotline, much like you'll see villains and plot points recur in a TV series. (The Shadow involvement in Babylon 5, for instance.)

Congrats Mouse. I am going to hazard a guess and say that being part of the team remaking ToH for the current and favorite edition of D&D probably made you quite happy?

I know I would almost have given my left nut, if I was a freelancer

 

[Jack99]

In 4E, there's hardly any damage effect more terrifying than losing a Healing Surge, or losing HP equal to a Surge.

Ongoing damage equal to their healing surge!
(semi-joking)

Anyway, while it does scare players somewhat, I am not a huge fan of sucking surges. It just makes for shorter adventuring days, unless the players are in a place where they can not rest. At higher levels, it get somewhat harder to interrupt them constantly while maintaining some semblance of realism (IMO; IME; ETC)

 

[fba827]

Hey, folks. Back from GenCon, exhausted as all heck, and my feet are in more pain than I would think possible with a mere 10 toes and two heels. (I committed the cardinal GenCon sin of only bringing new shoes with me. )

But I wanted to chime in on this. See, Andy Collins gave me permission to share one (and only one) piece of specific information on the 4EToH. And that is this:

The reason that it has such a wide level range is that it's not a single, play-all-the-way-through-and-stop adventure, the way most published adventure products are. Rather, it's meant to be spread out throughout the length of a campaign, as an ongoing plot arc to which the PCs return time and again. For instance, they might play through the events of the first part at one level, then gain a handful of levels via completely uninvolved adventures*. Then, they experience something that draws them back into the ongoing plot, and go through the second part of the book, and so forth, learning more about the ultimate schemes and objectives of our villain during each step.

*I say "uninvolved adventures," but the DM can certainly choose to link them to the ongoing ToH plotline if he wishes.

So ultimately, it's less a single adventure than a number of linked adventures that form a recurring plotline, much like you'll see villains and plot points recur in a TV series. (The Shadow involvement in Babylon 5, for instance.)

That structure sounds a LOT like the adventure that came with the Wrath of the Immortals box set (back in the day) - it was 3-4 adventures, of different levels, that had connected plots and recurring themes. I have to say, that was a very good structure since it wasn't heavy handed in plot focus (allowing it to be a primary or secondary plot line) and yet still allowed for enough connectivity to seem, well, connected all the way from low levels to high levels!

I'd take that over a concentrated "level X-Y" super adventure (it's all focused on the specific levels rather than something that is setup to be peppered over multiple arcs), and I'd take this structure over an adventure paths (which pretty much dominate the plot form start to finish, as they should -- that's what they're meant to do and it works for some but it's not always what i want)

My point -- i prefer this structure for published adventures, so nice to see it making a return.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Ongoing damage equal to their healing surge!
(semi-joking)

Anyway, while it does scare players somewhat, I am not a huge fan of sucking surges. It just makes for shorter adventuring days, unless the players are in a place where they can not rest. At higher levels, it get somewhat harder to interrupt them constantly while maintaining some semblance of realism (IMO; IME; ETC)

Might still be appropriate. Though I think "the character loses one healing surge at the start of his turn (save ends)" is more likely. as others mentioned, the original ToH didn't come with a time limit, so just do your 15 minute adventuring days!

Of course, it doesn't really help the believability... I suppose they'll come with something better.

 

[catsclaw227]

That structure sounds a LOT like the adventure that came with the Wrath of the Immortals box set (back in the day) - it was 3-4 adventures, of different levels, that had connected plots and recurring themes. I have to say, that was a very good structure since it wasn't heavy handed in plot focus (allowing it to be a primary or secondary plot line) and yet still allowed for enough connectivity to seem, well, connected all the way from low levels to high levels!

Goodman Games' DCC-14 Dungeon Interludes was like this. Linked adventures, not meant to be strung in succession, but with a single over-all story arc.

You can do the first adventure, go off and do a couple more, return to complete the next adventure in the Interlude, go off to a few other adventures, return, etc...

 

[Mouseferatu]

I'd take that over a concentrated "level X-Y" super adventure (it's all focused on the specific levels rather than something that is setup to be peppered over multiple arcs), and I'd take this structure over an adventure paths (which pretty much dominate the plot form start to finish, as they should -- that's what they're meant to do and it works for some but it's not always what i want)

My point -- i prefer this structure for published adventures, so nice to see it making a return.

I'm a fan of the format myself. I wouldn't want to see it become the standard--I think single concentrated adventures are probably more useful to more people--but I'd love to see it used more often.

 

[davethegame]

There's the whole "death trap" issue, but I also wonder if the newer school design of skills vs. the old school method of player ingenuity with dealing with traps is going to come into play here. I'm interested to see what the design ethos of the traps and such is going to follow.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm a fan of the format myself. I wouldn't want to see it become the standard--I think single concentrated adventures are probably more useful to more people--but I'd love to see it used more often.

maybe it is just me and my crazy group...but I don't think 'skip' dungeons will work. I mean if you enter the tomb and get to room 8 at level 2, but rooms 10+ are ment for level5+ what happens whn the PCs keep going...or worse when they stumble onto the level 8 or 9+ area.

there has to be a very good set reason to not keep going...and danger alone doesn't cut it (We have TPKeed due to stuberness before)

 

[Mouseferatu]

maybe it is just me and my crazy group...but I don't think 'skip' dungeons will work.

I didn't say the book contained only a single dungeon, did I?

(Of course, I didn't say it didn't, either. I can neither confirm nor deny, etc. etc. My point is simply, make no assumptions as of yet. There's a lot about this book you guys don't know, and that cannot reliably be extrapolated based on the title alone, or on what you've heard.)

 

[fireinthedust]

hmmm.... I hope it's a site-based series of dungeons rather than a narrative.

The problem with narratives is that you can't go back to them. Once you've interacted with the NPCs, they're changed. I, the DM, either develop them or they're dead, or they fade out.
If the module is a single situation, there isn't the same umph. An adventure path is great, but... narratives are formed 'By the Party's Unique Combination of personalities and actions. I couldn't really run Shackled City out of the box, ever, because I have no idea whether the PCs would take the bait for all the "episodes".

Site-based adventures describe a location. A dungeon filled with re-setting traps, for example. A series of rooms the PCs have to go through to get to the treasure.

If it's going to be a ToH 4e, it is so important that it be a collection of the best traps 4e can pump out. Like, a lot of trap rooms and conundrums. An orb that summons 4 minions a round. A room that locks its doors and floods with water. Spiked walls closing in on a locked, skill-challenge door (4 more rounds, we need some successes!).

I like Dungeon Delves. I think it's a good product, and I've made use of it so far. However, a bigger series of this is what I could really use. The idea of a mega dungeon, to me, is more interesting and challenging than a narrative.

I wanted out of Undermountain books in 2e a series of traps, not a set of empty maps. While encounters are fantastic (and I like them), what I've enjoyed about some of the modules coming out (spider queen's enclave, for example) is just making the challenge that my players can get to.
I can get them there, just set up the traps and monsters. And even the treasure packets, frankly.

that, I think, would be my dream product: a complete conundrum setting for any heroes to get through. Complete with riddles, challenges to evade (jump across the chasm), monsters lying in wait (that make sense, like summoned creatures, golems, etc.), and just tell me how to get the PCs there (and out again, I guess).