So what is the history of Sorcerors

[Wraith-Hunter]

What dead levels? I'm fairly certain gaining access to new level spells and just getting more spells is really good ability.

In comparision to wizards they get nothing. Wizards also get access to new spells every level, so do all the other casters. There is no game mechanic reason to NOT take a PrC for a sorcerer.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

The history of spontaneous casters is not born with 3E; rather, long before 3E arrived, I used to see several netbooks with alternate casting systems for magic-users in them; I may be mistaken, but I think Dragon Magazine had one or two alternate magic systems in its history before even 2nd edition. I also know that, as far back as 1987, our house rules used to include spontaneous casting of ALL clerical spells for clerics and druids, because it made sense as "miracles called by the priest" and because it never seemed to unbalance the gaming play. I even ran an al. wizard in my 2E games in the early 1990's where you could cast ANY spell known to you once, but if you wanted multiple copies, they had to be written down ahead of time. This encouraged them loading up on the magic missiles, fireballs, etc. but they saved 1 or 2 slots at each level for the esoteric things like glitterdust, or detect magic, etc. I would be surprised if thousands of other DMs didn't have similar experiments.

I have a feeling that all this history was well known to the designers when they sat down to make a draft of 3E...

I was aware of alternate casting methods, played with spell points in 2e with Skills n Powers, but the desicision to make an entirely new class based on spont casting is what I was wondering about. More along the lines of the behind the scenes discussions about the desicion to add a sorcerer to DnD. I figured if anyone knew the answer guys here would. I'm just curious what was going on in the designers heads in regards to the class.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

The history of spontaneous casters is not born with 3E; rather, long before 3E arrived, I used to see several netbooks with alternate casting systems for magic-users in them; I may be mistaken, but I think Dragon Magazine had one or two alternate magic systems in its history before even 2nd edition. I also know that, as far back as 1987, our house rules used to include spontaneous casting of ALL clerical spells for clerics and druids, because it made sense as "miracles called by the priest" and because it never seemed to unbalance the gaming play. I even ran an al. wizard in my 2E games in the early 1990's where you could cast ANY spell known to you once, but if you wanted multiple copies, they had to be written down ahead of time. This encouraged them loading up on the magic missiles, fireballs, etc. but they saved 1 or 2 slots at each level for the esoteric things like glitterdust, or detect magic, etc. I would be surprised if thousands of other DMs didn't have similar experiments.

I have a feeling that all this history was well known to the designers when they sat down to make a draft of 3E...

I wonder if most DMs and players even bother with set daily spell lists even now, which drives the purpose of a sorceror even lower. How do most DMs administrate that?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

What dead levels? I'm fairly certain gaining access to new level spells and just getting more spells is really good ability.

Please read the thread.

 

[Henry]

but the desicision to make an entirely new class based on spont casting is what I was wondering about.

That I don't know, but if I had to guess, their process probably went something like, "OK, plenty of people obviously want some kind of spontaneous caster, but we don't want to screw it all up by making wizards spontaneous. I know! Let's make a separate character class based on it!" Heck, that's what I'd do, if making changes to an important database, I'd make changes to the copy first...

I wonder if most DMs and players even bother with set daily spell lists even now, which drives the purpose of a sorceror even lower. How do most DMs administrate that?

I know that in all groups I've been in so far, we certainly do, and at gamedays I go to and people I talk to on ENWorld, most that I'm aware of still stick with prepared casting for clerics and wizards when playing stock D&D. Arcana Evolved people notwitstanding...

 

[Prince of Happiness]

I know that in all groups I've been in so far, we certainly do, and at gamedays I go to and people I talk to on ENWorld, most that I'm aware of still stick with prepared casting for clerics and wizards when playing stock D&D. Arcana Evolved people notwitstanding...

Interesting! Every group I've played *never* bothered with spell lists until I insisted on them when I've run.

 

[frankthedm]

If 4E does anything, I think it needs to figure out how the flavor and mechanics of magic go together. You've got the "the power's inside you, lad" people (sorcerers); the "magic's a science you can learn if you are smart" people (wizards); and the "I beseech you, unknowable supenatural beings, grant me power" people (clerics). I just wish each style felt different, and yet had something of a unified mechanic. That's probably a tall order.

Magic is a dangerous force and no mater how you get to the power, you need to use the words of power, gesticulations, material sacrifices and foci to activate said power and bring it into the world. One you get really good, you might be able to do magic without them, but that will take stilling, silencing and eschewing and the loss of a lot of spell power.

Now if you ask me if they should have horrific mishaps for those who elect not to use the VSMFs, I’ll say yes. I love the idea of young or angry sorcerers forgoing the components with explosive results.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Interesting! Every group I've played *never* bothered with spell lists until I insisted on them when I've run.

I've only played in one game that ignored spell preparation - the DM felt that divine casters should be able to cast straight from their class list, rather than needing to prepare in advance.

It was interesting - I actually cast Guidance and Resistance! (I've never, ever prepared Guidance or Resistance, and I've never taken Resistance as a Spell Known for a sorcerer...) I cast Detect Poison! I prevented a TPK by casting Soften Earth and Stone twice! (I've been known to prepare Soften Earth and Stone on occasion. But two of them? Forget it!)

Around the time we got to 5th or 6th level, though, he changed his mind and had us go back to preparing. I can understand - it's quite a power-up, and maybe some of the non-divine-caster players felt short-changed. But it was certainly interesting while it lasted.

-Hyp.

 

[hopeless]

Reg: Sorcerors

I heard sorcerors originally had a d6 for HD and could select from both Cleric and Wizard spell lists. For some reason it was downgraded most likely because it was considered too powerful.

Personally when I ran 3rd edition i rstored the HD to d6 and added 3 extra class skills originally Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidation but of late i believe the player should get to select three bonus class skills for the purpose of making their character truly original such as having one with Listen, Search nd Spot for one who sees their character as being more perceptive or in the case of a halfling add Disguise, Hide and Move Silently who is stealthy in nature (long story).

Don't care about the extra feats although having the Book of Familiars helps since that allows for alternative familiars that grant extra abilities as the character increases in level.

The only part I have problems with other than Favoured Souls whose existance makes the presence of Sorcerors in the core book a joke (check it out in the Complete Divine to see what i mean) and I do admit to disliking Warlocks but am more likely to let one be played before restricting them to npc villains before i'd ever allow a favoured soul...

I consider Sorcerors more of a challenge to roleplay but it only seems to work if the dm is capble of understanding that sorcerors ARE supposed to be different from Wizards NOT dependent on them for spells...