D&D 5E So what's exactly wrong with the fighter?

Speaking from the complaint that the fighter is lacking in distinct non-combat options...

1: Parry -- combat
2: Trip -- combat
3: Riposte -- combat
4: Commander's Strike -- combat
5: Rally -- combat
6: Feinting Attack -- combat
7: Evasive Footwork -- combat
8: 6d8 Superiority Dice (Martial Initiate) -- combat
9: Magic Initiate: (Blade Ward, Eldritch Blast, Armour of Agathys) -- combat, could have been non-combat though, but everyone has feat access so not distinct
10: Duel Wield longswords (Duel Wielder) -- combat
11: Criminal Background: (I can Sneak, Pick locks, disarm traps, and deceive 18 Dex & 16 Cha) -- non-com, but everyone has access to the background so not distinct
12: Drow abilities: Superior Darkvision, Dancing Lights, Darkness, and Faerie Fire. -- mix, but race is not tied to fighter so not distinct
13: 3 attacks -- combat
14: Student of War -- combat
15: Know your Enemy -- combat


I realize of course that these are the choices you elected to take, but it serves to demonstrate the point nonetheless that the fighter is lacking in distinct non-combat options.

I also realize that there are other gripes being levied against the fighter, but I'm not addressing those here (nor am I personally sure I prescribe to those gripes, but I understand the points).

How does taking the answer to a totally different complaint and using it to address something else prove anything? It'd be different if someone built a fighter for non-combat utility and you addressed that since it would be addressing the issue you are talking about.

EDIT: *sigh* The fighters extra feat in and of itself is distinct...
 

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Speaking from the complaint that the fighter is lacking in distinct non-combat options...

1: Parry -- combat
2: Trip -- combat
3: Riposte -- combat
4: Commander's Strike -- combat
5: Rally -- combat
6: Feinting Attack -- combat
7: Evasive Footwork -- combat
8: 6d8 Superiority Dice (Martial Initiate) -- combat
9: Magic Initiate: (Blade Ward, Eldritch Blast, Armour of Agathys) -- combat, could have been non-combat though, but everyone has feat access so not distinct
10: Duel Wield longswords (Duel Wielder) -- combat
11: Criminal Background: (I can Sneak, Pick locks, disarm traps, and deceive 18 Dex & 16 Cha) -- non-com, but everyone has access to the background so not distinct
12: Drow abilities: Superior Darkvision, Dancing Lights, Darkness, and Faerie Fire. -- mix, but race is not tied to fighter so not distinct
13: 3 attacks -- combat
14: Student of War -- combat
15: Know your Enemy -- combat


I realize of course that these are the choices you elected to take, but it serves to demonstrate the point nonetheless that the fighter is lacking in distinct non-combat options.

I also realize that there are other gripes being levied against the fighter, but I'm not addressing those here (nor am I personally sure I prescribe to those gripes, but I understand the points).

I haven't even gotten into all the skills yet. I made those choices because of the concept of the character. There are many many more combinations you can take for the fighter. My fighter doesn't represent all the fighters out there.

What else do you want to do out of combat?

This guy can sneak, pick locks, climb, jump long distances, perform acrobatics, negotiate, scout, size up people by knowing specific information, etc...

I could have gone a different route and chosen other spells for magic initiate, or I could have chosen another feat and just settled for a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in another.

You people continue to claim you need more out of combat options but yet you don't explain what those are.
 

I haven't even gotten into all the skills yet. I made those choices because of the concept of the character. There are many many more combinations you can take for the fighter. My fighter doesn't represent all the fighters out there.

You mean the skills everyone has access to, right?

What else do you want to do out of combat?

Nothing actually. YMMV

This guy can sneak, pick locks, climb, jump long distances, perform acrobatics, negotiate, scout, size up people by knowing specific information, etc...
Trimming to what's actually fighter specific we have... jump long distances and size up people

I could have gone a different route and chosen other spells for magic initiate, or I could have chosen another feat and just settled for a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in another.

Absolutely agree and understand. The fighter can happily select a feat accessible to anyone else.

You people continue to claim you need more out of combat options but yet you don't explain what those are.
Look at pretty much any other class for examples. This was explained in the previous conversation about all of this, by me actually. Here it is: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?456928-Why-does-5E-SUCK/page20&p=6641773#post6641773
 

You people continue to claim you need more out of combat options but yet you don't explain what those are.

I'm genuinely interested in this topic. If this thread produced some ideas of what these could be, the thread would be 1000 times more interesting and useful.

Most of the distinct non-combat martial abilities I've seen are very low level and not that interesting. Like - "You can request lodging at a village".

We need higher level examples like:

Little Birds (10th level) - You have developed a network of spies throughout the country. At 15th level this extends to the entire world. [a powerful feature that lets you influence politics, find out secret information better than scrying, etc.]

This is just one avenue that 'mundanes' could have as distinct niche-- automatic features that allow for more societal power.

Any ideas?
 


Outside of combat, the fighter can ONLY do what everyone else can also do (same access to feats, skills, backgrounds, etc).

Every other class can do what the fighter can, but also has access to things that make them extraordinary outside of combat. Some classes have expertise, some have spells, some have invocations, some have shape-changing, some can walk on water and jump super far (Multiple times further than the fighter). Sure, the fighter can contribute to a non combat encounter but only at the bare minimum by which everyone else already could.

Two PCs with the same attribute and proficiency are equally capable in non combat situations. But the one who can cast enhance ability giving him advantage on his rolls has a significant edge. The PC who has expertise or reliable talent has a significant edge. The PC who can cast a spell to bypass an otherwise deadly challenge with unsure results has the edge.

Ultimately, there is nothing wrong with the fighter being the worst class when it comes to non combat utility. After all, some class had to be the worst at it. And being the worst doesn't mean you can't contribute. You can still contribute just fine. You will never be amazing at any particular non combat task, but you will perform well enough. I just hope that when they make a more inspired martial class that it actually has some non combat capability above in beyond the baseline.

Hell, I would even be fine with a variant fighter replacing second wind with this:
Physical Expertise - double your proficiency bonus for any Strength (Athletics) check you make. You also gain proficiency with STR and CON checks.

It is nice way to give the fighter variant a way to really shine when it comes to physical tasks. He will of course still be worse off than a rogue with both expertise and reliable talent, or a bard with expertise and enhance ability, but that is fine. The variant fighter doesn't need to be the best at physical related tasks. It would just be nice if he was better than the baseline.
 
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Outside of combat, the fighter can ONLY do what everyone else can also do (same access to feats, skills, backgrounds, etc).

So?

I get tired of seeing this argument. So what do we only have classes that have full niche protection to the point where nobody can do anything else another class can do? At the moment all classes can cast spells, learn martial maneuvers, learn and use any skill so basically the question becomes this. Why are you playing 5th edition D&D then? There is nothing wrong with the classes, it's a personal problem and not a design problem. This just obviously isn't your game because you want to be the kid on the block that has the only game console. You keep moving the goalposts back and forth because several people here have proven your overall argument wrong and have posted examples. The fighter is designed to be a combat oriented class with the ability to take away some of that combat and focus a bit more on the noncombat, that is not a flaw but by design. If you don't like it then play another class. There is nothing stopping you from playing a Strength based rogue and taking the Martial Adept feat to pick up some superiority dice along with two maneuvers and take the Arcane Trickster subclass so you can have skills, maneuvers and spells.
 

I'm genuinely interested in this topic. If this thread produced some ideas of what these could be, the thread would be 1000 times more interesting and useful.

Most of the distinct non-combat martial abilities I've seen are very low level and not that interesting. Like - "You can request lodging at a village".

We need higher level examples like:

Little Birds (10th level) - You have developed a network of spies throughout the country. At 15th level this extends to the entire world. [a powerful feature that lets you influence politics, find out secret information better than scrying, etc.]

This is just one avenue that 'mundanes' could have as distinct niche-- automatic features that allow for more societal power.

Any ideas?

This can be done with simple role playing. I think the problem with these types of things is people become too reliant on a power to tell them what they can do.
 

You do realize the battlemaster has numerous maneuvers that allow him to do many of the things the 3e fighter had to spend multiple feats on just to become proficient enough to have a decent chance of success in there usage.
I also realize he only gets to do them a couple of times between hour-long rests, while they were essentially at-will in 3e, and, really, in spite of the risks & penalties, things a superior combatant, like a fighter facing lower-level mooks, could get away with even without heavy feat investment.

but majority of your feats are going to one, possibly 2 builds because you need to spend multiple feats in order to be decent at most of these builds...
Yeah, feats are 'bigger.' That doesn't change the fact that the 3.x fighter had about 2.5x as many feats as baseline, while the 5e fighter has about 40% more than baseline.

The 5e battlemaster is already a multi-target multi-attacker
So's the baseline fighter, sure, it's the 5e fighter's hard-coded DPR feature, multiple attacks - but it's never as efficient to split attacks that can be concentrated, and the potential number of attacks vs multiple foes is much lower than what a 3.x fighter with GC or WWA could manage.

the battlemaster can exert battle field control through conditions, pushing & maneuvering maneuvers, the protection fighting style, sentinel feat, etc.
Sure, the few maneuvers he can do per hour exert a bit of control, but the 3.x builds that concentrated on it could do so all battle, every battle.

Could a core 3e fighter heal? Grant his allies attacks and/or maneuver them into and out of different positions? Reduce damage to himself? These and more are all things a BM can do with maneuvers...
No, the 3e fighter couldn't do stuff like that, and the Battlemater can only barely do them, very rarely, and not at all well. The 4e Warlord, OTOH, was a master of such tricks compared to which the Battlemaster is a joke, and not a funny one.

And yet with the fighter I don't have to multi-class to get spells...
Not an important distinction. In 3.x, multi-classing was always an option for the player. In 5e, it's only an option if the DM allows it. So, in both eds, you can go EK regardless. A wash.

Again...with the objective statements and nothing backing them up...
The 5e fighter is locked into the high-DPR because it always gets multiple attacks. That's it's defining feature, and it's one that's proven downright problematic in every edition, because it can be so optimal ('broken') for maximizing DPR. You can't opt out of that in favor of something else. Yes, that's an objective statement, yes, it's backed up by irrefutable fact, no, we shouldn't have to repeat those painfully obvious facts every time, just because you're inclined to be disingenuous and pretend you're unaware of them.

That's funny because a BM with Protection Style, Menacing Attack, Goading Attack, Trip Attack and/or Pushing Attack with the Sentinel Feat and the Polearm Master Feat makes one helluva defender... but yeah you keep waxing on about what can't be done with the fighter in 5e and I'll stick to actual facts.
First of all, feats are optional. No feats, a lot of that goes away. Secondly, those maneuvers are low-availability compared to the always-available feats of a 3.x fighter or combat superiority/challenge of a 4e one. That leaves you with protection style, which is dependent on a Reaction, which the 5e action economy sets a hard limit of 1 on, while a 3.5 fighter with combat reflexes could take multiple AoOs.


Yes and seeing as how most games don't go past 10th level... most of those feats were going towards building up the 1-2 things your build was centered around to an acceptable level that the BM is laready at with his scaling maneuvers...
BM maneuvers don't scale or level up, they just layer on top of his attack - they're exactly the same at 3rd level as at 10th. Really, discounting higher levels just puts the 5e fighter further behind the curve. He gets only 1 bonus feat by 10th level, for instance, and misses out on his later extra attacks, as well.

and he still gets feats. Let's also not forget a BM can retrain his maneuvers... a fighter couldn't retrain feats...that strikes me as way more customizable.
Retraining reduces the need for system mastery, sure. The 4e fighter could retrain exploits (and had hundreds to choose from, not 18) as well as feats, too, so if you want to count the 5e fighter ahead of the 3.x on this point, you'd have to count it as far behind the 4e fighter, at the same time.

The question wasn't about optimal... it was about whether the feat was needed to be adept at dealing damage... it isn't.
The 5e fighter can't trade out his DPR potential to get anything else, so, sure, it's going to be high DPR, regardless. That's part of what's wrong with it, and constrains both meaningful choice and customization. It's optimal to throw gasoline on that fire if feats are available to do so.

Just as an easy example, a fighter who trips an opponent and allows his allies to get advantage (along with every other attack he has left) is probably outputting more damage than a fighter with GWM... In other words the feat isn't necessary for a fighter to be adept at dealing damage.



All I'll say is you seem to have quite a few assumptions about how the game is/should be played...
that don't really line up with what I've seen or what some/many posters are stating.
Feats are optional, if you don't want to consider certain feats, assuming optional feats would be a valid way of factoring them out. That's not an assumption about how people actually play, just an approach you could take to analyzing the 5e fighter, if you don't want to consider things like GWM or SS.

Or you could take some non-combat feats...
So could anyone. As you pointed out, most games don't progress much beyond 10th, so the fighter is looking at 1 bonus feat, at 6th, to differentiate him from the next guy. So he's different for half the levels they're playing through, to the tune of the getting his 2nd-best-choice feat two levels early, then enjoying the advantage of 3rd-best-feat-choice from 8th-10.

Like I pointed out, above, you need a pretty large advantage for it to show up meaningfully above the noise of d20 randomness. Expertise does that handily at higher level, for instance. Special abilities that obviate checks or do things checks can't are the other obvious way to get there. The fighter doesn't get anything like that, nor is a single, 3rd-best-choice feat likely to provide it, even if the player is willing to skip optimal alternatives to take it (as, you'd have to assume a player not that interested in DPR - the only thing at which the fighter is even arguably optimal - would be perfectly willing to do).


EDIT: *sigh* The fighters extra feat in and of itself is distinct...
Anyone can take any feat. That's not distinct. So you get an extra feat at 6th, any feat you choose might be something that the next guy took at 4th, or might take at 8th.

The 3.x fighter ran into the same issue, even though he had 11 bonus feats instead of just 2, and even though he had a couple of fighter-exclusive feats. Obviously, the 4e fighter, with distinct class features and hundreds of exploits, didn't have that issue, at all (it had other issues - like being locked into the Defender role, and lacking out-of-combat options).
 

I also realize he only gets to do them a couple of times between hour-long rests, while they were essentially at-will in 3e, and, really, in spite of the risks & penalties, things a superior combatant, like a fighter facing lower-level mooks, could get away with even without heavy feat investment.

Yeah, feats are 'bigger.' That doesn't change the fact that the 3.x fighter had about 2.5x as many feats as baseline, while the 5e fighter has about 40% more than baseline.

So's the baseline fighter, sure, it's the 5e fighter's hard-coded DPR feature, multiple attacks - but it's never as efficient to split attacks that can be concentrated, and the potential number of attacks vs multiple foes is much lower than what a 3.x fighter with GC or WWA could manage.

Sure, the few maneuvers he can do per hour exert a bit of control, but the 3.x builds that concentrated on it could do so all battle, every battle.

No, the 3e fighter couldn't do stuff like that, and the Battlemater can only barely do them, very rarely, and not at all well. The 4e Warlord, OTOH, was a master of such tricks compared to which the Battlemaster is a joke, and not a funny one.

Not an important distinction. In 3.x, multi-classing was always an option for the player. In 5e, it's only an option if the DM allows it. So, in both eds, you can go EK regardless. A wash.

The 5e fighter is locked into the high-DPR because it always gets multiple attacks. That's it's defining feature, and it's one that's proven downright problematic in every edition, because it can be so optimal ('broken') for maximizing DPR. You can't opt out of that in favor of something else. Yes, that's an objective statement, yes, it's backed up by irrefutable fact, no, we shouldn't have to repeat those painfully obvious facts every time, just because you're inclined to be disingenuous and pretend you're unaware of them.

First of all, feats are optional. No feats, a lot of that goes away. Secondly, those maneuvers are low-availability compared to the always-available feats of a 3.x fighter or combat superiority/challenge of a 4e one. That leaves you with protection style, which is dependent on a Reaction, which the 5e action economy sets a hard limit of 1 on, while a 3.5 fighter with combat reflexes could take multiple AoOs.


BM maneuvers don't scale or level up, they just layer on top of his attack - they're exactly the same at 3rd level as at 10th. Really, discounting higher levels just puts the 5e fighter further behind the curve. He gets only 1 bonus feat by 10th level, for instance, and misses out on his later extra attacks, as well.

Retraining reduces the need for system mastery, sure. The 4e fighter could retrain exploits (and had hundreds to choose from, not 18) as well as feats, too, so if you want to count the 5e fighter ahead of the 3.x on this point, you'd have to count it as far behind the 4e fighter, at the same time.

The 5e fighter can't trade out his DPR potential to get anything else, so, sure, it's going to be high DPR, regardless. That's part of what's wrong with it, and constrains both meaningful choice and customization. It's optimal to throw gasoline on that fire if feats are available to do so.

Just as an easy example, a fighter who trips an opponent and allows his allies to get advantage (along with every other attack he has left) is probably outputting more damage than a fighter with GWM... In other words the feat isn't necessary for a fighter to be adept at dealing damage.



Feats are optional, if you don't want to consider certain feats, assuming optional feats would be a valid way of factoring them out. That's not an assumption about how people actually play, just an approach you could take to analyzing the 5e fighter, if you don't want to consider things like GWM or SS.

So could anyone. As you pointed out, most games don't progress much beyond 10th, so the fighter is looking at 1 bonus feat, at 6th, to differentiate him from the next guy. So he's different for half the levels they're playing through, to the tune of the getting his 2nd-best-choice feat two levels early, then enjoying the advantage of 3rd-best-feat-choice from 8th-10.

Like I pointed out, above, you need a pretty large advantage for it to show up meaningfully above the noise of d20 randomness. Expertise does that handily at higher level, for instance. Special abilities that obviate checks or do things checks can't are the other obvious way to get there. The fighter doesn't get anything like that, nor is a single, 3rd-best-choice feat likely to provide it, even if the player is willing to skip optimal alternatives to take it (as, you'd have to assume a player not that interested in DPR - the only thing at which the fighter is even arguably optimal - would be perfectly willing to do).


Anyone can take any feat. That's not distinct. So you get an extra feat at 6th, any feat you choose might be something that the next guy took at 4th, or might take at 8th.

The 3.x fighter ran into the same issue, even though he had 11 bonus feats instead of just 2, and even though he had a couple of fighter-exclusive feats. Obviously, the 4e fighter, with distinct class features and hundreds of exploits, didn't have that issue, at all (it had other issues - like being locked into the Defender role, and lacking out-of-combat options).

There is a lot of assumptions in this post.

You are trying to base your argument on the assumption that everyone else has already taken everything else and that anything you choose is just overlap.

Not a good argument.
 

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