So when should a publisher ditch d20 and develop their own system?

[Glyfair]

Can you be more specific? Which developments? I never thought the Ghostbusters RPG was very popular, or even played on a large scale, much less studied for its innovative efforts.

I think it was dipped into more often for its innovative ideas more often than actually played. Of course, the people that worked on it worked on a lot of stuff and usually like talking game design theory as well (Sandy Petersen, Lynn Willis, Greg Stafford, Ken Rolston & Gary Costikyan), so the bits from the game might not have directly come from people playing the game.

 

[RyanD]

Can you be more specific? Which developments?

Ghostbusters is generally credited with being the design that introduced the concept of target numbers as a metric of difficulty, and a die mechanic to determine success or failure vs. that target number.

It was, I believe, Greg Costikyan's first commercially published game - there's a lot of embryonic design elements in it that grew up over the next decade to form much of the basis of the "modern" RPG toolkit.

 

[Psion]

Ghostbusters is generally credited with being the design that introduced the concept of target numbers as a metric of difficulty, and a die mechanic to determine success or failure vs. that target number.

Hmmm. MegaTraveller was out the same year, though admittedly, the target numbers weren't "naked". I seem to remember some older titles... MSPE and after a fashion, Tunnels & Trolls, also using target numbers of a sort.

 

[eyebeams]

Can you be more specific? Which developments? I never thought the Ghostbusters RPG was very popular, or even played on a large scale, much less studied for its innovative efforts. Although, I was only working as low man on the totem pole at a game store in the early 1990s, and I never cracked the cover of a Ghostbusters product. Never heard much about it beyond the fact that it existed (and never sold in our store), which is why I'm amazed and curious. I really want to hear more on that subject.

Dice pools, mixed karma-based resolution and stylistically, it really was the forerunner for a whole way of introducing a game. From GB we get to Star Wars and then, I suspect, to real mass recognition.

My admitted guess is that most similarities are coincidence. Gaming often reinvents the wheel, and in my experience, concurrent development (two people working on the same idea at the same time, unbeknowst to each other) is VERY common.

I'm sure this is so, but it's also hard to say how much is people thinking alike and how much is just a climate of ideas seeping into people's heads. I had an experience not too long ago where I unconsciously duplicated the name of an NPC created by another author. I had to apologize to him pretty damn quick for not second guess what what I treated as coming out of thin air -- because *nothing* really comes out of thin air. That's why it's important not t be too critical of what came before, since you might reinvent part of it one day . . .

Believe it or not, I was working on a new RPG system near the end of the 2E days, before 3E was announced and certainly before I started work for Kenzer and Company. Yet, my system was incredibly like the basics of D&D 3E, except you also rolled for hit location. Doesn't mean that one influenced the other - things just happen that way.

Well, we do know that d20's basic task resolution system owes a lot to Ars Magica (Jonothan Tweet said as much), with some simplication (no exploding dice, except for combat crits, where the exploding die is just sort of hidden) and D&Disms (3-18 base stats even though the actual ability score number only comes up in two rules in the whole game).

But one of the great things about an open system is that you can rehabilitate ideas that are useful, but not necessarily spectacular. I for one would love to see a properly implemented hit location system for D20 games, so where's your work, man!

 

[Psion]

Well, we do know that d20's basic task resolution system owes a lot to Ars Magica (Jonothan Tweet said as much)

Common misconception. What Tweet did say is:

The core mechanic (d20 + ability modifier + class/level/skill modifier) is very close to the core mechanic in Ars Magica. The similarity comes as no surprise, since I based the Ars Magica core mechanic partly on hacks I did to the rules in my D&D campaign. Coincidentally, it's also very close (maybe even closer) to the core mechanic I worked with when I developed the Talislanta Guidebook for Wizards. The other designers already had a core mechanic similar to the current one when I joined the design team, and I've seen the same basic idea in a few other games as well.

Emphasis added.

 

[eyebeams]

Of course, he was answering this question:


Did any mechanics or elements from your previous games migrate into 3rd Edition or influence how you approached the design?

And of course, from his very own site (specifically, http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotgamerunequest.html), you can read:

Once I joined the 3rd edition team for D&D, I championed the die + bonus system that is now the core mechanic of the game.

Of course, he doesn't take total credit for it (for one thing, Ars doesn't have templated bonuses), but the point still stands.

 

[tx7321]

OK, my take on D20 is this: its an easy system to use, and fast. Thats the advantage.
The disasvantage is that its an easy system to use and its fast. I found it took some of the mystery out of the game (loosing the tables), and made the DM seem less important somehow. But I realize not every one agrees. And thats OK.

So, when leave D20? For a marketer, its when the tea-leaves tell you the public is tired of that method and ready to move on. That time hasn't come IMHO.

 

[Pramas]

It was, I believe, Greg Costikyan's first commercially published game - there's a lot of embryonic design elements in it that grew up over the next decade to form much of the basis of the "modern" RPG toolkit.

It wasn't Greg but the Chaosium team of Sandy Petersen, Lynn Willis, Greg Stafford who were behind the Ghostbusters RPG. West End, the publisher, hired Chaosium to the do the design. The resulting game was not a commercial hit but it was very influential amongst RPG designers.

 

[SteveC]

Hmmn, let me take a crack at this.
I think the simplest reason to make a new system rather than relying on D20 or the OGL is when you need your system to do something that is genuinely different than what you see in a D20/OGL game. That's about the only reason.

Is there any reason that Serenity wasn't released as an OGL game? What mechanics of the Firefly TV show or the Serenity movie couldn't you accomplish with D20/OGL? To my mind, none. Would a D20/OGL Serenity game have sold better? I would say yes, largely because almost no one is buying Serenity for its game system. Having played a Serenity game, I can give my opinion that it is one of the worst commercial game systems that has come out in the last several years. Nice looking book, though.

A friend and I have made a habit of stopping by new game companies at Gen Con and listening to their pitch. If their game is basically a stat + skill + die roll game, with class-like and feat-like objects, we ask them why they didn't release the game as either D20 or OGL. Sometimes they have great answers (ask this question of Luke Crane, author of Burning Wheel, and you'll get some free entertainment) but oftentimes the answers we get show that the person doesn't really understand the difference between D20 and the OGL or really hasn't even considered the idea.

Should Iron Kingdoms go to a different game system? Only if there is a reason for it, and the designers can't get something important to work as they like using D20 or the OGL. From where I'm standing, I don't think that there's anything about the setting that couldn't be done well if the designers understood the OGL (which would be the only real option for a solid Iron Kingdoms game in my opinion, the D20 license doesn't really suit it).

Creating an OGL Iron Kingdoms game in the lackluster way that Deadlands D20 was born, on the other hand, should be avoided. If you as an author don't like the system and haven't taken the time to really play and learn it, you shouldn't build a game around it

So those are just my $.02 on the matter...

--Steve

 

[RyanD]

It wasn't Greg but the Chaosium team

I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification - want to give proper credit for such a seminal work.

Ryan