So when should a publisher ditch d20 and develop their own system?

[BryonD]

So you have to be arrogant to believe that D20 is not the end-all and be-all of all RPG design?

No.
But you have to be quite arrogant to believe that you can do better.

Of course, sometimes arrogance is justified.....

 

[Mark CMG]

No.
But you have to be quite arrogant to believe that you can do better.

Of course, sometimes arrogance is justified.....

THANK YOU! Finally! diaglo? We're all clear . . .

 

[eyebeams]

I thought this was pretty much what most mainstream RPGs have been doing, with WoD/StoryTeller leading the charge.

For that to be true, this would have to reflect the majority of games using the system, which (based on my intentional studies of many, many games), it doesn't. Unless you think that kickers (sorry "preludes") and relationship maps and focused designs (sorry -- theme driven rules like "Humanity," "Morality," "Paradox," "Gnosis," "Virtues," etc. etc.) are bad, which you obviously don't think, given that you've handily reproduced the technique first used in Chicago by Night here:

http://www.buzzmo.com/starhero/ap/Conflict-Web.gif

It's a good technique and worth using. I understand that all the cool kids are saying that it was invented last year and is OMG NOT AT ALL like the game that actually invented it though.

 

[rgard]

So you have to be arrogant to believe that D20 is not the end-all and be-all of all RPG design? To me, it's pretty silly to think that one system, designed with a strong eye for compatibility towards 30 years of D&D could be the end-all and be-all of RPG design, or even that any one system could be the end-all and be-all of RPG design. If you want GURPS or Hero, it is better to reinvent the wheel then then to pick a truly inappropriate tool.

I agree; there is room for other systems and other systems are probably better for some designers to get their vision of the roleplaying of their ideas done so that they feel comfortable.

However another consideration is how well the designers want or need to do financially. Sometimes you have to bury the ego and go with what is best for the business. I personally think that Serenity and the Atlantis game (Omni system IIRC) could have easily been designed to use D20 or at least OGL. I know I would have sold more of each if the games had been D20. Compare that to Mongoose's Conan which has sold well...it's OGL/D20 based and I'll bet that it has sold better than the GURPS version.

Now I know that what sold in my store doesn't necessarily accurately depict what gamers are buying everywhere else. I'm not sure how much it would cost the non-D20 designers to do this, but conversion pdfs posted at their sites to convert to D20 would help sales.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Mark CMG]

(. . .) NOT AT ALL like the game that actually invented it though.

Could you clarify the use of the word "invented" in this context, please?

 

[Psion]

However another consideration is how well the designers want or need to do financially. Sometimes you have to bury the ego and go with what is best for the business. I personally think that Serenity and the Atlantis game (Omni system IIRC) could have easily been designed to use D20 or at least OGL.

Atlantis does use the OGL. I wouldn't call it a D20 game, as it principally just borrows feats, but I thought I'd point that out.

 

[rgard]

Atlantis does use the OGL. I wouldn't call it a D20 game, as it principally just borrows feats, but I thought I'd point that out.

Sure feats are part of the OGL, but that is hardly a selling point for the game. Had they gone D20 or Conan-like OGL, one of my regulars or I would have DM'd this at the store and I know folks would have purchased copies of the game as well. I count myself lucky to have sold the one copy I got in at 30% off.

 

[Psion]

relationship maps and focused designs (sorry -- theme driven rules like "Humanity," "Morality," "Paradox," "Gnosis," "Virtues," etc. etc.) are bad, which you obviously don't think, given that you've handily reproduced the technique first used in Chicago by Night here:

http://www.buzzmo.com/starhero/ap/Conflict-Web.gif

It's a good technique and worth using. I understand that all the cool kids are saying that it was invented last year and is OMG NOT AT ALL like the game that actually invented it though.

For different values of "cool kids" you have different values of "first". The diagram you linked too seems to me like an instance of a social network diagram, something that's existed in social sciences for some time (see here for a bit more background.) It's as likely as not that the idea has been pulled into gaming in several places. The first place I recall seeing one is the Golden Khan sourcebook for BECM D&D, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had been used earlier elsewhere.

 

[Psion]

Sure feats are part of the OGL, but that is hardly a selling point for the game. Had they gone D20 or Conan-like OGL, one of my regulars or I would have DM'd this at the store and I know folks would have purchased copies of the game as well. I count myself lucky to have sold the one copy I got in at 30% off.

So, you are still finding D20/OGL to have value in moving product then? I thought that it had been pretty well fished out (at the very least, a hurdle to even get it into the distribution chain.)

 

[buzz]

For that to be true, this would have to reflect the majority of games using the system, which (based on my intentional studies of many, many games), it doesn't.

You seem itching to pick an indie vs. mainstream (or, more specifically, indie vs. WoD) fight, and, yes, grabbing content from my website certainly put me off guard for a sec. I'm not really interested.

But, all I was talking about was Mearls comment about GM-centered, players-along-for-the-ride play, which seemed to me to pretty much describe the typical RPG experience, especially '90s-era games. StoryTeller, originator of the Golden Rule, seemed a good example, but you could also include a lot of AD&D2e content, GURPS, and HERO play, too. To use Forge terminology (and I apologize, because I know you don't like the Forge much), I'm talking about Illusionism.

Basically, what Mearls described sounded like pretty much every game I was in from about '82-'92, hence my asking the question.

It's interesting to see that RMap concepts were in a WoD supplement. Has WW used it in any other products since?