So when should a publisher ditch d20 and develop their own system?

[ShinHakkaider]

There's also a big difference between maintaining with new and innovative concepts than same old, same old.

Yeah, and I'm gonna kick myself for saying this later, but sometimes new and innovative isnt all it's cracked up to be(*coughNOBILScough*) and the same old, same old actually works better for certain things (HERO System).

I for one really dont mind the pointless retreads as long as they are well done. I think that Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was a good product and I'm looking forward to Expedition to Castle Greyhawk. On the other hand I've tried playing and running M&M and I've finally decided that it's not the game for me. I like the game but I prefer HERO/CHAMPIONS. I think that the mechanics put too much power in the hands of the players and it almost seems like the GM is just along for the ride (GM fiat IMHO is a copout and not much of a viable mechanic).

Like I said it's an interesting game but not something I look forward to running or playing again.

For the record Premas' comment did come across as a bit snarky (at least to me), so I understand Mearls comeback. I'm also a fan of of GR's material, not Freeport so much (not really into pirates...) but their other stuff. I see GR as filling a niche that WOTC isnt going to fill simply because WOTC are the big boys on the block. To jump on WOTC because they arent being innovative on a certain level seems just kinda petty really.

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

The discussion of system is mostly irrelevant, since you can't sell a game without a compelling hook behind it. The people making TRPGs today are in their mid to late 30s, and it shows. Licenses that hit their peaks 25 years ago, endless retreads of the same old same old (pulp, pirates, supers), these are all trotted out in front of a generation of gamers that simply doesn't care. In most cases, the question of d20 or not is irrelevant, since the game or license is dead out of the gate.

Sad but true. I know a lot of early adolescent/teenage gamers who could care less what the RPG industry has to offer because the industry is totally out of touch with what they want. These kids are just happy playing thier homebrew Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, //.HACK RPGs and would continue to play even as the industry comes to a commerical end.

Heck, I feel this way some of the time too.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

There is a "World of Warcraft" TRPG out there. Which probably explains the "much".

Since World of Warcraft is pretty solidly at the far end of the electronic RPG spectrum from any game, the moderately-successful-by-MMO-standards, flop-by-offline-FF-standards FF11 excepted, that has or is likely to appear on a console in the foreseeable future... I'd say this doesn't explain the "much."

 

[BryonD]

FWIW, I am part of the problem.

It isn't a problem. Just a detail.

 

[buzz]

There's also a big difference between maintaining with new and innovative concepts than same old, same old.

I think this is really selling WotC short. I think we're forgetting we're just a few years away from the release of d20 itself, an evolutionary step for D&D. On top of that they've been putting forth very interesting new ideas (eg., Tome of Battle). I won't deny that they're on the supplement treadmill, but so are most mainstream publishers. IMO, the good-to-great have outnumbered the clunkers.

Not to mention, so what if they're releasing the umpteenth version of an old module? D&D is fundamentally about the same thing it's always been: the dungeon. Sure, the name recognition will help sell books, especially to veterans, but that doesn't mean the end product isn't potentially better than the original, and doesn't ultimately meet the most important goal: to let players "get their D&D on."

Heck, my group has been playing the new Ravenloft book, and it's been a blast. What do I care if it's old IP? Most of us never played the first time around.

The simple fact is, WotC knows their market. If Expedition to Seen It Before exists, it's because fans want it. And if sales of that book keep stuff like ToB, ToM, and Eberron coming, then I'm all for it.

 

[BryonD]

You can't really call something a flash in the pan when it hits another reprint well past the first few months of sales. A 4th printing of any RPG outside of D&D, WW, Palladium is not too common.

Meh, when we are talking a time frame of "months" we are pretty much still flash in the pan AFAIAC. Yeah, I readily admit that TRPG pans are a really small scale for reference. But that doesn't really change the matter in my mind.

I can link you to one right now:

Honestly, if that is the best there is for a game based on a Whedon property, then I'm underwhelmed.

Asking for the game to have the same online presence as the WoD -- a setting that in various incarnations is over 15 years old -- is of course silly.

I didn't bring up WoD. You did.

 

[MerricB]

I think this is really selling WotC short. I think we're forgetting we're just a few years away from the release of d20 itself, an evolutionary step for D&D. On top of that they've been putting forth very interesting new ideas (eg., Tome of Battle). I won't deny that they're on the supplement treadmill, but so are most mainstream publishers. IMO, the good-to-great have outnumbered the clunkers.

Indeed. Wizards provide material for the group that wants innovative material (Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum), and for the group that wants material to grow the campaign they actually have (Complete Warrior, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), and for the group that want to play the campaign they have (Fantastic Locations, D&D Miniatures).

Wizards have a broad portfolio of D&D products.

What Wizards don't have are innovative new RPG systems, but I'm not convinced that such is worth it for them. Anything they create in that realm is going to be so much smaller than D&D that the profit margins won't be there. (It is other companies that can survive with products like True20 and C&C and Unisystem, etc.)

As an aside, look at the company Fantasy Flight Games and what they do.

Cheers!

 

[eyebeams]

No, it doesn't. The end user is the person who should be adapting another system, it should be the game designers. If I buy a campaign supplement and am given a system I feel I don't want to use, but feel the work is too much to use a "better fitting" system, that's bad.

If you decide that you're willing to accept what you don't like instead of adapt another system, you have by definition decided that the existing system better suits your needs.

 

[eyebeams]

Meh, when we are talking a time frame of "months" we are pretty much still flash in the pan AFAIAC. Yeah, I readily admit that TRPG pans are a really small scale for reference. But that doesn't really change the matter in my mind.

Um, actually, we'e talking about sales that probably leave the lifetime sales of games and supplements that are commonly considered to be successful around here in the dust. On Amazon right now, it's selling about as well as Dragon Magic despite being a full year older. Other RPGs in its ranking category (the 30,000s) include D20 Modern and Mutants and Masterminds. Iron Heroes, which is about as old, isn't even close, being in the 6 digit rankings (a position it shares with Arcana Evolved, which is a bit older).

Honestly, if that is the best there is for a game based on a Whedon property, then I'm underwhelmed.

I *also* said that I excluded multiple instances with Serenity RPG discussion in non-dedicated sites. You're more than capable of firing up Google yourself for that.

And of course, I've linked to multiple reports of people playing it, without mentioning Mearls' brother *and* the fact that my hypothesis that of rgard's customers, the only guy who'd actually run a Firefly-based game was the guy who went with the official rules happened to be absolutely correct.

At this point, I'd say the argument that nobody's playing the game with the rules in significant numbers compared to those using alternatives has been given a spectacular viking burial, with burning ships, sonorous intonations of doom, and a sense of confident finality.

I didn't bring up WoD. You did.

I brought up the WoD because most of its fandom is organized outside of general interest rpg groups, not because of the numbers of sites. It's just one example where just because somebody on ENWorld isn't talking about it all the time doesn't mean it isn'y happening. As the entire basis for pretending Serenity was unsuccesful rested on this extraordinarily shaky premise, it's certainly relevant.
If you chose to seize upon the latter despite not even believing it made a difference to the discussion, well, what exactly does that say about your partucipation?

 

[tensen]

I agree on all points. The IK setting has nothing that invalidates the d20 system.

That said, I'm definitely not of the opinion that d20 can "do it all". Shadowrun wouldn't be Shadowrun if it was d20 in my opinion.

And yet it might work quite well under True20.