So when should a publisher ditch d20 and develop their own system?

[eyebeams]

Yeah, that's exactly my point. A designer can obsess over details all he wants, but in the end the gamer determines how a game gets used. Their campaign (as described to me) is pretty much dungeon crawl after dungeon crawl in space; enter room, zap guards, take their stuff, move on to the next room.

You are definitely spot on about designers and how gamers are the ones who dictate where something goes. That does speak to creating rules that fit, but obviously that's irrelevant if the game doesn't speak to anyone. This extends even to RPGs. One of the most presistent comments I heard about 3e circa 2000 was that it felt like the D&D that gamers always wanted to play, but TSR wouldn't give them.

I distinctly remember the art for 3e as the first D&D images since the mid-1980s that actually synched with my personal view of what a D&D campaign looked like.

True dat.

I think that the gaming zeitgeist rests in the 20 year olds, and what the TRPG industry struggles with is speaking to those gamers. We can skate by on some evergreen concepts (WoW and about 20 billion Japanese CRPGs show us that going into dungeons to clobber stuff is still popular; Star Wars still sells billions of dollars of toys), but there are a lot of subtle shifts out there.

For instance, I think the concept of evil megacorps has fallen by the wayside. They're not the major bogeyman to a 20 year old in 2007, as opposed to a 20 year old back in 1990. There's an entire genre of game, first person shooters, that speaks to the concept of a one man army taking on an entire planet of bad guys; that flies in the face of a trend in gaming for high lethality worlds. If you look at the best selling console games of the past year, and you look at what's out there for TRPGs, is there really much crossover?

I think your first point answers your second. In successful RPGs there are high-lethality worlds for everybody but the protagonists. In some cases, the game doesn't say so, so the players ratchet up character power until the PCs *are* that good.

When you do get acknowledged badassitude, that's basically Exalted (though Exalted's getting a bit long in the tooth) and just like HALO, where the bad guys kill everybody but you really easily. The trouble is that niche protection in an RPG does come off looking like characters are weaker, so that people will help each other.

Frankly, though, I think that's played out too. The trend in FPS is more weak niche protection and stealth action, along with reduced resource management.

I also think that when it comes to things that *gamers* think are played out, it doesn't match the population at large. The Evil Corp is a good example, where the problem is really that the presentation always lacked the right combination of earnestness and sophistication a la Deus Ex.

 

[Pramas]

Bitter much?

Bitter? No. Sad at the current state of D&D? Yes.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I think that the gaming zeitgeist rests in the 20 year olds, and what the TRPG industry struggles with is speaking to those gamers. We can skate by on some evergreen concepts (WoW and about 20 billion Japanese CRPGs show us that going into dungeons to clobber stuff is still popular; Star Wars still sells billions of dollars of toys), but there are a lot of subtle shifts out there.

I agree with most of this, except for saying JRPGs are indicative of the popularity of "going into dungeons to clobber stuff." My experience with at least the last two generations of them (PS2 and PS1, basically, along with Saturn and Dreamcast) is that they are indicative of the popularity of extremely plot- and character-centric games with simple to grasp gameplay that gets out of the player's way. WoW and MMORPGs in general, however, are indeed closely affiliated with the kill things and take their stuff model.

For instance, I think the concept of evil megacorps has fallen by the wayside. They're not the major bogeyman to a 20 year old in 2007, as opposed to a 20 year old back in 1990. There's an entire genre of game, first person shooters, that speaks to the concept of a one man army taking on an entire planet of bad guys; that flies in the face of a trend in gaming for high lethality worlds. If you look at the best selling console games of the past year, and you look at what's out there for TRPGs, is there really much crossover?

For "much," read "any," and I completely agree with this.

 

[Turjan]

For "much," read "any," and I completely agree with this.

There is a "World of Warcraft" TRPG out there. Which probably explains the "much".

 

[Turjan]

I'm not sure that 4 print runs are significant. It depends on how big the 4 runs were, yes?

At least at amazon, the game still seems to outsell any nWOD title. Only the current Exalted title sells better. Of course, D&D is in a different league. Nevertheless, that's not bad for a game that's more than a year old.

If this means that only games modeled after TV shows sell (except D&D), that's not very encouraging.

 

[rgard]

At least at amazon, the game still seems to outsell any nWOD title. Only the current Exalted title sells better. Of course, D&D is in a different league. Nevertheless, that's not bad for a game that's more than a year old.

If this means that only games modeled after TV shows sell (except D&D), that's not very encouraging.

Thanks for the info! I think the games modeled after TV shows is a different animal. You have a built in fan base which may explain that is does well. That and the book is gorgeous.

 

[Slife]

To answer the OP,

As soon as they think they can make more money by doing so.

 

[buzz]

If it was like LotR, then it would already be self-evident; the line started failing a year after release.

I was thinking more in terms of, "Big license that gets tied to a middling system, sells a lot initially and musters a fanbase, is critically panned, but wins awards anyway*, system gets named and then used for other licensed property by same company, whole shebang kind of fades away after a year or two."

Of course, it's not a 100% perfect parallel. As mentioned earlier, only time will tell. For all I know, Serenity is turning a generation of Browncoats into gamers loyal to Cortex, and we'll see a whole series of successful games based on the system as years go by.

But, I dunno. I'm really curious to see how BSG does, as, afaik, it has nothing comparable to Browncoats.

* LotR won an Origins Award.

 

[eyebeams]

I was thinking more in terms of, "Big license that gets tied to a middling system, sells a lot initially and musters a fanbase, is critically panned, but wins awards anyway*, system gets named and then used for other licensed property by same company, whole shebang kind of fades away after a year or two."

Of course, it's not a 100% perfect parallel. As mentioned earlier, only time will tell. For all I know, Serenity is turning a generation of Browncoats into gamers loyal to Cortex, and we'll see a whole series of successful games based on the system as years go by.

But, I dunno. I'm really curious to see how BSG does, as, afaik, it has nothing comparable to Browncoats.

* LotR won an Origins Award.

I personally don't find BSG very gameable with a traditional RPG *unless* MWP is allowed to be inventive with the prewar background, which, thanks to Caprica, they won't.

Funnily enough, I think the problem is the IP-owners. WEG did more for the Star Wars IP than anyone besides Lucasfilm. They effectively diversified the universe so that it became a flexible playground for almost anyone. I think if a smart company saw how RPG competencies allow them to expand their IPs, they'd stay hands off and allow RPGs as forerunners to other spinoffs, so that the games serve as effective bibles. These companies don't seem to understand how to build robust worlds out of what's implied by the shows.

 

[Glyfair]

Thanks for the info! I think the games modeled after TV shows is a different animal. You have a built in fan base which may explain that is does well. That and the book is gorgeous.

There you have different issues. The question there deals with whether the license is worth the additional costs. Tales are rife of successful licensed games that failed because the licensing fees made them unprofitable or barely profitable.

At the same time, there are exceptions. I know Simon Rogers posted some comments about how to do a licensed RPG using themselves (with Dying Earth) and some Mongoose titles. It mostly came down to only deal with licensees that understand the market and don't price themselves out of it (and understand that it will not degrade the value of the license).