So when should a publisher ditch d20 and develop their own system?

[tx7321]

Let me make an addendum to this: you can also use a totally different system and be successful if you're bringing a large number of new people into the market that don't have preconceived notions of what a popular system is.

However, in these cases, I think it's still a good idea to use the OGL if you can, because you can get your new blood in, and also attract your existing market.

--Steve

This is undoubtedly a very tough market to make a living in, esp. when you realize how much of the market is totally dominated by WOTC. Most people who'd likely see your "hot off the press" game system are already familiar with D20, so do you put your eggs in the ("buy us, were familiar D20 basket") or the ("if your bored of rolling a D20 where different") basket. And then there is the nastalgia basket (like Hackmaster and OSRIC). If it were my money on the table, I honestly can't say which way I'd go. THough I think the wind is changing, and people are getting bored with D20. It'll be interesting to see if 4E keeps it.

Also, you have to consider the possibility that there are real differences in the results produced by each general system type: D20 vs. Tables (as I brought up in another thread) or other systems. If you want your game to have a certain feel this needs to be considered (quick and easy, complex and drawn out etc.). For instance, battles take slightly longer roling d1-100 (using 2 dice) then a single 20 sided (having to wait till both dice stop and then read them). If you want to produce a certain experiance, it might matter which system you use.

 

[rgard]

This is undoubtedly a very tough market to make a living in, esp. when you go into the game store and see how much of the market is dominated by WOTC. Most people who'd likely see your game system are already familiar with D20, so do you put your eggs in the "were familiar D20 basket") or the ("if your bored of rolling a D20 where different") basket. And then their is the nastalgia basket (like Hackmaster and OSRIC). If it were my money on the table, I honestly can't say which way I'd go. THough I think the wind is changing, and people are getting bored with D20.

Also, you have to consider the possibility that there are real differences in the results produced by each general system type: D20 vs. Tables (as I brought up in another thread) or other systems. If you want your game to have a certain feel this needs to be considered. For instance, battles take slightly longer roling d1-100 (using 2 dice) then a single 20 sided (having to wait till both dice stop and then read them).

You can save alot of time in game if you just use weighted dice.

 

[Umbran]

Arrogance is sometimes a required component of an innovative designer.

Tangential to the thread, but I don't believe this is true. Unless one is defining "arrogance" as "having sufficient bravery to allow one's work to become public", I think this talk of arrogance rather overstating the case.

 

[JoeGKushner]

My answer is YES.

Ditch d20 from your products. But go further than that: ditch any game mechanics from your products. ...

I think this is a huge mistake.

The game mechanics in many ways help make the setting. While some game systems are somewhat universal like GURPS and Hero, others like Rolemaster and to a lesser extent, d20, are not. Some game systems are built into the setting such as Legend of the 5 Rings (now on it's 3rd edition!).

Look at Green Ronin, their next printing of Freeport will be devoid of game mechanics (these will be on separate supplements). If it also was the case with Iron Kingdom, I could probably buy the two, put Freeport in the setting, and then use what I want for rules. However, since I am not interested in more d20 rules, I have no use for Iron Kingdom books...

But the Freeport book isn't out yet and we have no idea what sales will be. It might not be a d20 slump, it might just be a RPG slump. It'll be hard to tell. For example, will some former d20 fans of it turn it down because GR is doing True 20 and feel that they're no longer a d20 company? (Despite d20 modules, etc...)

Green Ronin is hardly the first RPG company to do 'generic' resource material. Anyone remember the original Grimtooth Traps or the old City Books or other various products by Flying Buffalo?

And as far as IK, the history/world book, is pretty much stat free so if you like setting, you DO have a use for at least the DM book.

 

[diaglo]

Anyone remember the original Grimtooth Traps or the old City Books or other various products by Flying Buffalo?

remember them. i am currently using them.

 

[JoeGKushner]

remember them. i am currently using them.

Me too.

And Lejentia. Very interesting elves and some great NPCs in those two campaign setting books.

But I suspect people like us may be in the minority and that most D&Ders haven't.

Generic =! Instant use.

I remember having to spend a lot of time customizing some of the old characters like Spider Baz for my games. Heck, Aeshiba and Baldamar (I think) were interesting products by... Living Fantasy Games (dudes who did Cyborg Commandos and other stuff) and I used that stuff for a while too. Greek Africa was something I hadn't seen the likes of before and enjoyed it.

 

[RyanD]

"Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice"

Huh?

I have no idea where that URL came from. Here's the right one:

http://www.rampant-books.com/mgt_amazon_sales_rank.htm

Ryan

 

[woodelf]

Ulitmately this is what led me to come up with a new strategy for the Freeport re-launch. The Pirate's Guide to Freeport is a 256-page hardback detailing the City of Adventure and containing no game stats for any system. We are then publishing a series of companion books that give rules info and stats for many different systems. First on deck are the True20 Freeport Companion and the d20 Freeport Companion, but there will be others as well. This should allow us to broaden Freeport's appeal to fans of fantasy gaming in general, while providing good support for the city's original fanbase as well.

Well, you just sold me a copy. Though i probably won't buy any of the system companion books. For a couple decades, now, my primary complaint with setting books, even for systems that i'm using and loving, has been too much reliance on the mechanics to convey the content, and just plain too much crunch when describing the setting. A systemless, but RPG-specific setting book (unlike, say, the Dragonlover's Guide to Pern) is what i've always wanted. As an added bonus, I've heard lots of good stuff about Freeport.

 

[woodelf]

Anyone remember the original Grimtooth Traps or the old City Books or other various products by Flying Buffalo?

And, if i had to choose between my CityBooks, and Ptolus, i'd pick CityBooks as the more useful, better-done product. As much as a think Ptolus is absolutely awesome, it's just too tied to a particular set of mechanics, and thus implicit (and explicit) assumptions.

 

[JoeGKushner]

And, if i had to choose between my CityBooks, and Ptolus, i'd pick CityBooks as the more useful, better-done product. As much as a think Ptolus is absolutely awesome, it's just too tied to a particular set of mechanics, and thus implicit (and explicit) assumptions.

As opposed to the low fantasy heavily inherent in the Citybooks? :\

Even without game stats, the City Books include a number of implicit and explicit assumptions in my opinion.

Very few demi-humans. Very little magic. Very little in terms of magic items. Very little in terms of planar travel, etc...

Just because you don't agree or see assumptions, doesn't mean that they're not there for others to see.

But as I noted to Diaglo, I love the series. But if it was a great seller and a proven point of 'generic' superiority, wouldn't they have compilations of them in hardcover format and new material?