So, Wintertouched...

[Black Knight Irios]

There are all these builds I see citing wintertouch / lastingfrost as working with frost weapons and yet the feats themselves say "powers that have the cold keyword." If they didn't work with melee weapons that would be more reasonable.

I don't see your problem, is it:
A: You don't believe that by RAW those 2 feats work with a frost weapon?
or B: You don't like the fact, that they do?

If it is indeed A: there is nothing tu argue the rules are clear.
But if it is B feel free to houserule that in your campaign those feats only work with powers that have the cold keyword build in or whatever fits your taste.

 

[Marakesh]

I'm pretty sure that when you use a cold/fire/etc. weapon with a power, that power gains the appropriate keywords. Thus, every power used with a frost weapon has the cold keyword.

I don't see this in the rules which is why I ask. However, I only have the PHB so can't say for sure, maybe it exists somewhere. I read it as a list of these specific powers which have the cold keyword we intend to be used with wintertouched and lasting frost. They could just have easily said "when dealing cold damage ..." like with irresistable flame.

And if there is something that adds the appropriate elemental keyword to powers when using these weapons, then yes it should be houseruled away IMHO. Who wouldn't take +2 attack and +5 damage per hit on all swings after the first!!?! Then there is lightening arc - setup with a divine oracle to knock out 2 mobs? A daggermaster should have a 15% chance to knockout 2 anyways. Not only OP but how is your dagger arcing to make a specfic attack 180 degrees behind you even!? This just gets silly.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I don't see this in the rules which is why I ask. However, I only have the PHB so can't say for sure, maybe it exists somewhere. I read it as a list of these specific powers which have the cold keyword we intend to be used with wintertouched and lasting frost. They could just have easily said "when dealing cold damage ..." like with irresistable flame.

And if there is something that adds the appropriate elemental keyword to powers when using these weapons, then yes it should be houseruled away IMHO. Who wouldn't take +2 attack and +5 damage per hit on all swings after the first!!?! Then there is lightening arc - setup with a divine oracle to knock out 2 mobs? A daggermaster should have a 15% chance to knockout 2 anyways. Not only OP but how is your dagger arcing to make a specfic attack 180 degrees behind you even!? This just gets silly.

From the PHB (Frost Weapon)

Power (At-Will ✦ Cold): Free Action. All damage dealt by
this weapon is cold damage. Another free action returns
the damage to normal.

From the official PHB 4E FAQ:

15. When do a Magic Item's keywords apply?

If you use a magic item's power in conjunction with a power granted to you by your race or class, that item's keywords are added to the regular keywords of the power you are using. For example, if you are have a Flaming Weapon, and you use an at-will power to attack an enemy along with the at-will power of the Flaming Weapon, your attack will have the Fire keyword in addition to the normal keywords of your attack. You have to be using the powers of the weapon for those keywords to be added; simply using the magic item does not necessarily mean every keyword attached to a power of that item will be added.​

You have just to exchange fire with cold because those two powers are identical. There you go ruleswise.

 

[Klaus]

And that's where I was headed with my Rogue, until I went through the MM to find creatures vulnerable to fire. The feat Wintertouched itself makes perfect sense for my character thematically, but the need for Lasting Frost makes me back away from it. Two-Fisted Shooter and Slaying Action, then.

 

[Nightson]

Who wouldn't take +2 attack and +5 damage per hit on all swings after the first!!?!

Everyone would, of course the feats don't give that.

Benefit: When attacking a creature that is vulnerable
to cold, you gain combat advantage when you use
a power that has the cold keyword.

Benefit: Any target you hit with a power that has
the cold keyword gains vulnerable cold 5 until the end
of your next turn.

Wintertouched is worthless, utterly and totally worthless anytime you would get CA normally or if it's not a turn right after you hit a creature (and you only get it against the target you're hitting). It is situationally useful, it'd even be very useful to a rogue in a party without any other melee, but it would just bring him back into line with what any rogue in a party with other melee would expect.

Lasting frost is pretty good, if you use a specific magic weapon and hit a creature you get to deal an extra five damage on your next attack. Of course if you miss on any turn it falls off and you have to wait at least two turns to benefit from it again, and any time you switch targets you'll again have to wait. Against a Solo monster whose easy to hit, lasting frost is going to shine, but minions, changes in tactical priorities, lots of moving around required, a monster with high defenses, all of these things are going to drastically lower the effectiveness of this feat.

So yes, if you spend two feats and only use a specific magic item, you will have an advantage in very specific conditions.

It's not exactly overpowered.

 

[Marakesh]

From the official PHB 4E FAQ: Quote:
15. When do a Magic Item's keywords apply?

If you use a magic item's power in conjunction with a power granted to you by your race or class, that item's keywords are added to the regular keywords of the power you are using. For example, if you are have a Flaming Weapon, and you use an at-will power to attack an enemy along with the at-will power of the Flaming Weapon, your attack will have the Fire keyword in addition to the normal keywords of your attack. You have to be using the powers of the weapon for those keywords to be added; simply using the magic item does not necessarily mean every keyword attached to a power of that item will be added.​

You have just to exchange fire with cold because those two powers are identical. There you go ruleswise.

So, they thought about this after the rules were published and then decided this was a great idea?

So yes, if you spend two feats and only use a specific magic item, you will have an advantage in very specific conditions.

It's not exactly overpowered.

Every single rogue or ranger build I see online seems to have wt at 10th and lf at 11th. Seems the majority think these 2 are necessary. Wasn't it supposed to be part of the strategy that melee would have to work to get CA, not just give them an automatic +2 with no danger for having to flank and no need to get powers to set it up? If you get +5 damage half the time, that is still more than weapon focus or other paragon level feats provide, and that is a low estimate.

 

[On Puget Sound]

You only get +5 damage if you succeeded in hitting the same target on the previous round. Sometimes (half the time?) you will miss. Other times circumstances will force you to change targets. So it's more like +5 one quarter of the time, or about 1 damage per round. Of course, if you have this combo, you'll be trying to fight differently, sticking to one target to take advantage of it when the tactcally better move might otherwise be to change targets. So you might squeeze 2 damage per round out of it, maybe even 3 vs a solo. For 2 feats, seems OK to me. I think other elements should have analogous (but not identical) feats, though.

Acid, Fire: ongoing damage
Lightning: dazed
Psychic: fear or confusion type effect
Thunder: push or knock prone
etc.

 

[Branduil]

You only get +5 damage if you succeeded in hitting the same target on the previous round. Sometimes (half the time?) you will miss. Other times circumstances will force you to change targets. So it's more like +5 one quarter of the time, or about 1 damage per round. Of course, if you have this combo, you'll be trying to fight differently, sticking to one target to take advantage of it when the tactcally better move might otherwise be to change targets. So you might squeeze 2 damage per round out of it, maybe even 3 vs a solo. For 2 feats, seems OK to me. I think other elements should have analogous (but not identical) feats, though.

Acid, Fire: ongoing damage
Lightning: dazed
Psychic: fear or confusion type effect
Thunder: push or knock prone
etc.

With a Ranger, though, it works out much better because of Twin Strike. And this brings up an interesting question- say you Twin Strike at an enemy with a Frost Bow, and one attack hits... can you apply the CA and damage bonus to the other roll? I know you must select your target for both arrows beforehand, but can one arrow cause an effect for the benefit of the other arrow?