D&D 5E Social Challenges & Political Conflicts

[MechaPilot]

RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE!!

Okay, so now that I've been on holiday break for a while, I've been giving this some thought. I don't have a fully fleshed out system yet, but I'm still working on it. However, I do have some brainstorming points that I'd like to share.

Renown
Renown, as described in the DMG, is basically a measure of your good standing with an organization. There's no reason that can't be expanded to important individuals as well. Renown makes for a good version of social or status HPs, although the numbers are a bit small for that purpose. What I'm thinking of is making renown into a bigger number. Instead of gaining one or two points for things as described in the DMG, you would gain 1d6 or 2d6 points. This creates a more HP-like pool of points that can be subject to attack.

I'm also considering leaving renown with the lower point values and making it into the social AC of a character for when an enemy tries to slander her while she's not around to defend herself. If I go this route, I would have each point of renown generate 1d6 points of "status," which would act as the pool of social hit points subject to attack.


Fame
I'm not sure how much of a role this should play, but it occurs to me that with renown acting as a measure of one's good standing (which makes it rather poorly named by the DMG), there should be some measure of the spread or pervasiveness of a character's reputation. I plan to have fame work at least partly like renown: you start with a score of zero and increase it as you do deeds that make you more and more famous (or infamous). The fame score would then be something that NPCs could check against to see if they've heard of you and your deeds, which could naturally color their interactions with you.


Loyalty
I feel like loyalty needs to be somehow integrated into the system. Undermining a character's loyalty to another character definitely seems like it needs to be a part of this system. I'm considering using the loyalty score as a kind of resistance to undermining tactics.


Influence
I'm also toying with the concept of influence points. Characters can gain influence points relating to different aspects: political, economical, criminal, religious, etc. They can then spend these points to help them assail the good standing of others, or to protect their own good standing.


Fleshed NPCs
In order to make this system work well and more easily, I think I also need to come up with a few archetypal templates that can be applied to NPCs. For example, a crime boss template would provide a few points of criminal influence and (probably) at least a single point of political and/or economic influence. It would also like to certain goals, such as wealth and political power, which would provide a basis for determining what types of activities can help you gain renown with that NPC.


Thoughts?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Thoughts?

Well, to be honest, it sounds like you're creating an entirely new stat-system that lies orthogonal to the original one (except that the mental stats may play a role--sorta like how i² = -1, even though the complex line is orthogonal to the real line).

You have "social HP" (either Status or Renown). You're considering a "social AC" (Renown). "Loyalty" seems to be a different kind of "social AC"--perhaps a "social saving throw" type deal, with the possibility of inflicting a penalty (or providing a bonus) to said roll. Backgrounds, or some form of new "template" that functions like a Background (or a very wan class) for social things, provide bonuses to these stats in meaningful ways, and attach particular social "weaknesses" and "resistances" (read: things that curry their favor/things that annoy them).

Is the creation of an entirely new "combat and skills" (really, "abilities") system, orthogonal to the current one but with certain points of relationship, something you actually mean to do?

 

[strider13x]

The only reason I don't like social HP is because their is no end to a social scene, no reaching 0. I would prefer a system that places conditions on a target that has mechanical implications when they attempt another action.

 

[Afrodyte]

This thread is coming on the heels of my first readthrough of Urban Shadows. If you have $13 to spare, go ahead and get it then pilfer a lot for your game.

One of the main things to take from it is the idea of Debt: who you owe and who owes you. It's not a thing you necessarily roll for or put points into. It just comes up in how you roleplay, and you make note of it on your character sheet. But the thing about Debt is that it's not purely mechanical, either. You don't track points or anything like that. It's only resolved in how you roleplay it. PCs and NPCs can choose not to do someone a favor in return for canceling Debt. That course of action does, however, lead to consequences: loss of reputation ("Yeah, don't trust him. He doesn't do what he says he will."), violent retribution ("You'll pay for this."), and so on. They also have the option of not canceling Debt owed to them if the action doesn't quite measure up.

And when there are Factions involved, things can get a lot more....interesting. At that point, it's not just about an individual. It's also about organizations and groups that have their own agendas that they may use the PCs to fulfill.

(You may notice that it doesn't necessarily wrap things up in a nice, neat little bow. It doesn't, and it shouldn't.)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

(You may notice that it doesn't necessarily wrap things up in a nice, neat little bow. It doesn't, and it shouldn't.)

I read this, especially after the "paying debts is subjective" bit, and can't help thinking, "Translation: this WILL be abused to hell and back. Never ever ever allow your char to get into any form of Debt, because they will never get out again."

 

[Afrodyte]

It works fine for Urban Shadows, and there is a system for it which I will not copy and paste here. But it is fair and it does work.

 

[MechaPilot]

Well, to be honest, it sounds like you're creating an entirely new stat-system that lies orthogonal to the original one (except that the mental stats may play a role--sorta like how i² = -1, even though the complex line is orthogonal to the real line).

You have "social HP" (either Status or Renown). You're considering a "social AC" (Renown). "Loyalty" seems to be a different kind of "social AC"--perhaps a "social saving throw" type deal, with the possibility of inflicting a penalty (or providing a bonus) to said roll. Backgrounds, or some form of new "template" that functions like a Background (or a very wan class) for social things, provide bonuses to these stats in meaningful ways, and attach particular social "weaknesses" and "resistances" (read: things that curry their favor/things that annoy them).

Is the creation of an entirely new "combat and skills" (really, "abilities") system, orthogonal to the current one but with certain points of relationship, something you actually mean to do?

Well, it's not entirely new.

Charisma is still used for diplomacy and other social skill checks. Influence acts as a situational modifier to those rolls, but it can also be spent for greater functionality.

Renown functions largely as described in the DMG, as a measure of the character's good standing with a group or individual. The changes I'm considering making to it simply allow it to be attacked by others instead of lost only through the actions of the character with the renown score.

Loyalty is very similar in that it also functions largely as described in the DMG. My changes to it are merely there for the sake of being able to reasonably erode someone's loyalty to another person or organization.

The templates that I spoke of would really only be used on NPCs, to apply proper levels of influence and renown to them and to set a few default ways to curry favor with or oppose them so that they can be used by DMs using this system without the DM having to do a large amount of work. PCs would develop renown and influence through their own action instead of choosing one of these templates as a background, and they would have their own motivations to appeal to or oppose.

The fame score is new to 5e, though it's just a twist on D20 Modern's version of renown.

Regarding the concept of this system being orthogonal to the existing stat system, I would disagree with that assessment. This system does use existing stats and skills as a base. Additionally, it provides a means of using those stats and skills to do additional things. It also builds off of the sowing rumors downtime activity. I would say that this system branches off at an angle before paralleling the existing system instead of simply skewing off at a right angle to the existing system.

 

[MechaPilot]

The only reason I don't like social HP is because their is no end to a social scene, no reaching 0. I would prefer a system that places conditions on a target that has mechanical implications when they attempt another action.

In general, I don't see many situations where social HPs would be allowed to fall to zero. A single social encounter is unlikely to undo someone's good reputation (i.e. renown) completely. It is far more likely that it would take repeated encounters, between which the attacked party may be able to restore some of her lost reputation or learn of the PC's attack on her reputation. Repeated attempts during the same encounter are probably likely to aggravate the person one is speaking with.

 

[nomotog]

What happens when you make it to zero social hp? Can you just not talk anymore? Social combat doesn't seem to have the neat win/lose states violent combat dose.

 

[MechaPilot]

What happens when you make it to zero social hp? Can you just not talk anymore? Social combat doesn't seem to have the neat win/lose states violent combat dose.

No. Reaching zero social HP would not mean you cannot talk anymore. The social HP relates to a loss of renown, or good-standing with another party.