Social Encounters: help needed?

dave2008

Hero
Sorry for not this, but I've been trying to find the rules or guidelines for social encounters in PF2e, but I haven't had much success. I see each class as a combat encounter, social encounter, exploration, and downtime suggestion. I can find the rules for the other four, but I can't seem to find them for social encounters. Can someone point me in the right direction for the SRD or corerulebook? Thank you!
 

ccs

39th lv DM
Probably mixed in throughout the various skills. Maybe some feats.

But how many rules do you really need for "talking"?
 

dave2008

Hero
Probably mixed in throughout the various skills. Maybe some feats.

But how many rules do you really need for "talking"?
I just got the impression that there are rules/guidelines based on the class descriptions. All the other areas: combat, exploration, and downtime have specific rules / guidelines that it seems odd that there wouldn't be any for social encounters. I also thought I saw @Campbell talking about them at one point. Maybe I was wrong and they are not there.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
Couldn't say for sure.
My players looked up stuff concerning diplomacy. Me? I just made up a DC they needed to hit - and claimed I'd look into it before the next session. I've yet to do that though (I've still got a few days :)).
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
There are rules for specific social actions contained in the Skills chapter, but most are part of exploration mode. By the time we enter Encounter mode things are a bit more constrained.

We can Convince someone who is already Friendly or Helpful to do something. We can also Demoralize them or Lie to them. We might also Recall Knowledge to help make a better case. A character with Quick Coerce could use Coerce in a social encounter, but not combat.

Changing attitudes requires the Make An Impression activity which requires a minute of conversation so it is not appropriate to encounters. The only way to alter attitudes on a shorter timescale would be to cast Charm without it being noticed.

There is some additional guidance in the GM chapter for situations where Convince is inappropriate. Basically you clearly define the stakes and build an encounter specific mini game around it based on the details of the fiction.

There will be more coverage of this in the Gamemastery Guide.
 

dave2008

Hero
There are rules for specific social actions contained in the Skills chapter, but most are part of exploration mode. By the time we enter Encounter mode things are a bit more constrained.

We can Convince someone who is already Friendly or Helpful to do something. We can also Demoralize them or Lie to them. We might also Recall Knowledge to help make a better case. A character with Quick Coerce could use Coerce in a social encounter, but not combat.

Changing attitudes requires the Make An Impression activity which requires a minute of conversation so it is not appropriate to encounters. The only way to alter attitudes on a shorter timescale would be to cast Charm without it being noticed.

There is some additional guidance in the GM chapter for situations where Convince is inappropriate. Basically you clearly define the stakes and build an encounter specific mini game around it based on the details of the fiction.

There will be more coverage of this in the Gamemastery Guide.
Thank you for the reply. I thought there might be social encounter "tactics" or something similar to what they have for exploration mode (which I am totally stealing for my 5e games). I just might make some up for Social Encounters, but might wait till the GMG comes out. Thank you again!
 

dave2008

Hero
Page 494 has some guidelines for social encounters including using Society or a Charisma-based skill to determine initiative.
That was helpful, similar to 4e, but with less structure. I'm still interested in adding something similar to the Exploration "Activities," but for social encounters and then maybe making a chart the hostile, unfriendly, indifferent, friendly, and helpful scale of success.
 

CapnZapp

Hero
Sorry for not this, but I've been trying to find the rules or guidelines for social encounters in PF2e, but I haven't had much success. I see each class as a combat encounter, social encounter, exploration, and downtime suggestion. I can find the rules for the other four, but I can't seem to find them for social encounters. Can someone point me in the right direction for the SRD or corerulebook? Thank you!
Social Encounters page 494. Basically, the usual rules for changing a hostile NPC into indifferent or friendly.

Text searching "attitude" finds scattered tidbits on pages 246 (Make an impression, a Diplomacy skill action), Changing Attitudes (also page 246), feats like Charming Liar (page 259), spells like Charm (page 322), social skills advice (page 506), and the Conditions appendix.

Other than that, not sure what you're looking for...?
 

CapnZapp

Hero
I just got the impression that there are rules/guidelines based on the class descriptions. All the other areas: combat, exploration, and downtime have specific rules / guidelines that it seems odd that there wouldn't be any for social encounters. I also thought I saw @Campbell talking about them at one point. Maybe I was wrong and they are not there.
What other mechanism than NPC attitudes and how to shift them did you expect to find?

Not sure if the following is relevant, but the body of rules in D&D has always been 85% combat 10% explore 5% social - give or take. (That is not three equal pillars)
 

dave2008

Hero
What other mechanism than NPC attitudes and how to shift them did you expect to find?
From my posts above:
"That was helpful, similar to 4e, but with less structure. I'm still interested in adding something similar to the Exploration "Activities," but for social encounters and then maybe making a chart of the hostile, unfriendly, indifferent, friendly, and helpful scale of success."

So I thought there might be some social "actions" that provide modifiers or similar adjustments to social encounters along the hostility scale. Similar to what they provided for the Exploration phase.

Similarly, a 3PP product for 5e came up with what they call "Social Combat," so I thought PF2e might have something like that.

Not sure if the following is relevant, but the body of rules in D&D has always been 85% combat 10% explore 5% social - give or take. (That is not three equal pillars)
Not really relevant for what I am asking, but in terms of playing time we spend a lot more time in social and explore than what the quantity of rules might suggest. Now, I realize you don't need as much rules for the other areas, but more support is welcome IMO.
 

CapnZapp

Hero
There are, as I said, a sprinkling of attitude mentions in various chapters, including feats that lets you use other skills than Diplomacy, or feats that lets you modify the standard change-attitude outcomes of the main Make an Impression action.

And the game is certainly geared up for providing more specialized feats.

If you hoped for something new, something more... involved..? then, no.
 

dave2008

Hero
There are, as I said, a sprinkling of attitude mentions in various chapters, including feats that lets you use other skills than Diplomacy, or feats that lets you modify the standard change-attitude outcomes of the
Yep, the help you and others have provided is much appreciated, I was just looking for something different.

When I get some free time a I might make my own guidelines and pit all this info in one place and add some larger framer work for social encounters. I have been interested in doing something like this for a long time and got reinvigorated with PF2e's exploration activities. I think combining that concept with the Fate-of-the-Norns Social Combat concept might make for interesting social encounter activities.
 
Sorry for not this, but I've been trying to find the rules or guidelines for social encounters in PF2e, but I haven't had much success. I see each class as a combat encounter, social encounter, exploration, and downtime suggestion. I can find the rules for the other four, but I can't seem to find them for social encounters. Can someone point me in the right direction for the SRD or corerulebook? Thank you!
I don't know if a class-based social encounter makes sense in non-metagame terms; it's too reliant on backgrounds. I picture a peasant who became a mercenary (and is a member of the fighter class) is quite different socially than a noble-born knight (a member of the fighter class) even though they are both fighters.
 

dave2008

Hero
I don't know if a class-based social encounter makes sense in non-metagame terms; it's too reliant on backgrounds. I picture a peasant who became a mercenary (and is a member of the fighter class) is quite different socially than a noble-born knight (a member of the fighter class) even though they are both fighters.
Why would it have to be class based? Or what do you mean by class based?
 
Why would it have to be class based? Or what do you mean by class based?
I am responding to this:

I see each class as a combat encounter, social encounter, exploration, and downtime suggestion.
I generally don't see each class having a specific contribution to social encounters. That's more about the character's personality, background, and even skillset.
 

dave2008

Hero
I am responding to this:



I generally don't see each class having a specific contribution to social encounters. That's more about the character's personality, background, and even skillset.
OK, I see what your saying. I wasn't trying to suggest the system has to be classed based. I was just referencing how in PF2e each class gives a description of what your class does in combat, exploration, social, and downtime modes, which is what made me think there would be rules for exploration like the rest of those areas. It looks like this for the Fighter (and is just a description of your role in each encounter, not the rules I was talking about which are located in "Running Modes of Play" in the GM section):

PF2e_ClossRoles.JPG
 
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CapnZapp

Hero
Ah.

Okay, I see your point.

I would say the social and explore descriptions are mostly just a successful attempt by the writer to hide the fact that class isn't contributing anything special :)
 

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