Social skills vs. ... all other mechanics

[5ekyu]

I think you are misunderstanding what the example was meant to illustrate. This is not a matter of player competence. You don't actually have to be a doctor to state your approach to a medical emergency in such a way to achieve an automatic success, or advantage. If a player states that instead of attempting to heal someone themselves, they bring their wounded friend to the nearby hospital, then that does not require any expert medical knowledge.

Similarly, you don't have to be an expert thief yourself in order to state an approach that is more likely to get you past the guards unnoticed. Maybe your character sets off an explosive on the other side of town that draws all guards in that direction? Automatic success, there are no more guards.



I agree that the way a DM should rule this is situational. But the idea that the stated approach to an action is irrelevant to the outcome, and that time taken and resources spent are more important, I completely disagree with.

I don't care how many resources a player spends to execute their dumb plan, or how long they take to execute their dumb plan. If it's a dumb plan, it is going to fail. Either automatically, or by me increasing the likelihood of failure by giving disadvantage.

And a smart plan executed with minimum resources and executed hastily, could still be an automatic success if it's a really smart plan. Or I might grant advantage.

Ok so I am not going to look back to get into specific of that response way back when and will focus mostly on what you quoted and what you said about it.

I do not see in what you quoted of me saying the stated approach is irrelevant to the outcome - so that appears to be a straw man for you successfully slow. Congrats. I think even in 5e slaying strawmen levels you to 3rd.

In the first bit there I referenced character competence at the task vs the players competence at the task. That is **not** the same as the approach to the solution which may change the task.

The example was stating you sneak past guards and adding wait until they are occupied as changing the success.

Your examples change the task,

"I jump across the gap" and "I walk over and walk across the bridge" are two approaches to "crossing the gap" - two different tasks.

"I treat my friends disease" and "I carry my friend to doctors" also two different tasks.

"I sneak past guards while they are occupied" and "I just walk in when there are no guards" - two different tasks.


In each case, the character "capabilities,it and the circumstances then set the difficulty at the task attempted.

Maybe the explosion causes guards to follow training, stay put, and reinforcements to go to gates following emergency training. Now sneaking past is more difficult.

Maybe taking your friend to the doctor spreads the disease along the way.

Maybe crossing the bridge openly gets you noticed.

But they are different tasks.

 

[5ekyu]

"I don't care how many resources a player spends to execute their dumb plan, or how long they take to execute their dumb plan. If it's a dumb plan, it is going to fail. Either automatically, or by me increasing the likelihood of failure by giving disadvantage."

One case in this graph may be that you are using "dumb" as a stand-in for "disadvantaged" or "cannot succeed" instead of how its presented - as a factor that determines those traits. If thats so, its just circular reasoning.

Assuming thats not the case, "we bash thru the wall to get in" might be "dumb" as a plan to get to the next room cuz a doorway is right there... But in my games applying more resources (more people) would still be helpful at the task. If you prefer a more skill check example use climbing vs taking stairs and more folks helping you on the climb or adding climbing gear.

I didnt think that was all that controversial an approach.

 

[smbakeresq]

Just to be clear, are inspiration points something tangible and real that in your game the characters see or are aware of and seek?

That seems to be the gist of your example and closing.

If so, how do you represent them? What does a rogue scout wood elf hunter perceive them as and know of them and how to get them?

I ask because our group is less enamoured and generally dislike player side token pool that have significant influence on in character play and results but if they were character side that might be more to our liking.

Can ypu give some examples of different characters and how their in character inspirations workin play and the benefits you have seen - assuming of course these motivators vary by character?

Yes of course they are tangible. You get them by acting as HEROES, as appropriate to your PC, class, race and background. That might be doing something:

1. foolhardy and reckless (Barbarian) - the group was taking to long to plan out an attack so the barbarian just raged and attacked. It was just like Leeroy Jenkins except it was exactly the right thing to do.

2. or smart and sneaky (wood elf rogue-scout min/max dip ranger-hunter.) We don't have one of those, but we have a monk who street performed (acrobatics) her way past guards looking for a bribe in Greyhawk, and then hid in the crowd to catch 2 thieves. In addition, a chimera in a carnival parade broke out of its cage, the monk was smart enough to subdue it as it was a zoo animal as opposed to a wild chimera to avoid loss to its owner, that got them inspiration in addition to the story reward of 2 potions of resistance.

3. A diviner that uses arcane eye to scout out the area and avoid or mitigate dangers. The eye is invisible and silent and it lasts an hour, that's 600 rounds worth of move 30' and observation. that's a whole lot of scouting that can be done and if you are smart enough to do it and thus pre-plan for encounters you surely did what a diviner would do.

4. The swashbuckler that leaps on every piece of furniture in every combat and kicks over every barrel in sight in the hopes they can grease the floor for the enemies. I have had to use printed obstacles from Gloomhaven to put more stuff on the floor.

5. The wizard who is smart enough to take water breathing as a ritual and cast it every day without fail and remind me and group of same when they group gets plunged into the lake. They would always tell me about this ritual and frankly I would always just say "Ok" and of course forgot it until they reminded me.

6. The Paladin of Crown (Shield Master user) who while in Greyhawk healed a dying doppelganger to turn him over to the authorities and then later jumped/dove off a ledge 30' up, launching himself like a missile (shield first) to prone someone. I figured that was good for something. As a side note, I ruled he took the falling damage of 20', 2d6, - d6 since he broke his fall on the enemy (he hit with the shield bash) +4 damage (he is 225lbs with 18 str, so the bigger you are the harder you fall) causing the enemy to take 2d6 (the fall damage) +d4 for the shield and +4 for the Str (actually mass falling down behind the shield) and both were prone (he missed his athletics check but so did the enemy). I thought that his move would be used up but he could take his attack routine, which he did. If he had made the ATH check I would have had him take less damage (landed on feet) but still take some (try jumping 30'down as a heavy person.) He did this BEFORE asking what the consequences of the jump down would be.

 

[smbakeresq]

"I don't care how many resources a player spends to execute their dumb plan, or how long they take to execute their dumb plan. If it's a dumb plan, it is going to fail. Either automatically, or by me increasing the likelihood of failure by giving disadvantage."

One case in this graph may be that you are using "dumb" as a stand-in for "disadvantaged" or "cannot succeed" instead of how its presented - as a factor that determines those traits. If thats so, its just circular reasoning.

Assuming thats not the case, "we bash thru the wall to get in" might be "dumb" as a plan to get to the next room cuz a doorway is right there... But in my games applying more resources (more people) would still be helpful at the task. If you prefer a more skill check example use climbing vs taking stairs and more folks helping you on the climb or adding climbing gear.

I didnt think that was all that controversial an approach.

Back to George S Patton "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week"


If the plan was dumb it will fail on it own, the DM doesn't have to help it fail.


If it was a dumb plan but worked but costs more resources then the increased cost is a cost and the fact that it worked means it was just another solution.



How many of you give XP for each creature in the encounter if the PCS avoided the encounter entirely, through smart play? I would in some cases, maybe most. If you avoid encounter you gave up the shinies from defeating them, a cost, but conserved resources for later, a benefit. You defeated the encounter that the DM laid out, so to me that's a victory. If its some random thing on the road, no XP. But if I build a lair and you finish it without cleaning out some rooms you still get credit for defeating them all even if you only killed/defeated some of them.

 

[5ekyu]

Yes of course they are tangible. You get them by acting as HEROES, as appropriate to your PC, class, race and background. That might be doing something:

1. foolhardy and reckless (Barbarian) - the group was taking to long to plan out an attack so the barbarian just raged and attacked. It was just like Leeroy Jenkins except it was exactly the right thing to do.

2. or smart and sneaky (wood elf rogue-scout min/max dip ranger-hunter.) We don't have one of those, but we have a monk who street performed (acrobatics) her way past guards looking for a bribe in Greyhawk, and then hid in the crowd to catch 2 thieves. In addition, a chimera in a carnival parade broke out of its cage, the monk was smart enough to subdue it as it was a zoo animal as opposed to a wild chimera to avoid loss to its owner, that got them inspiration in addition to the story reward of 2 potions of resistance.

3. A diviner that uses arcane eye to scout out the area and avoid or mitigate dangers. The eye is invisible and silent and it lasts an hour, that's 600 rounds worth of move 30' and observation. that's a whole lot of scouting that can be done and if you are smart enough to do it and thus pre-plan for encounters you surely did what a diviner would do.

4. The swashbuckler that leaps on every piece of furniture in every combat and kicks over every barrel in sight in the hopes they can grease the floor for the enemies. I have had to use printed obstacles from Gloomhaven to put more stuff on the floor.

5. The wizard who is smart enough to take water breathing as a ritual and cast it every day without fail and remind me and group of same when they group gets plunged into the lake. They would always tell me about this ritual and frankly I would always just say "Ok" and of course forgot it until they reminded me.

6. The Paladin of Crown (Shield Master user) who while in Greyhawk healed a dying doppelganger to turn him over to the authorities and then later jumped/dove off a ledge 30' up, launching himself like a missile (shield first) to prone someone. I figured that was good for something. As a side note, I ruled he took the falling damage of 20', 2d6, - d6 since he broke his fall on the enemy (he hit with the shield bash) +4 damage (he is 225lbs with 18 str, so the bigger you are the harder you fall) causing the enemy to take 2d6 (the fall damage) +d4 for the shield and +4 for the Str (actually mass falling down behind the shield) and both were prone (he missed his athletics check but so did the enemy). I thought that his move would be used up but he could take his attack routine, which he did. If he had made the ATH check I would have had him take less damage (landed on feet) but still take some (try jumping 30'down as a heavy person.) He did this BEFORE asking what the consequences of the jump down would be.

Great info there on how they are earned...

But

"Yes of course they are tangible."

You left out details on this. When that barbarian earned an inspiration point, what was tangible to them? When they later spent it, what did that look like in game? Are these token, trophies, flickering lights that follow them?

What are the tangible in game things that they interact with and see as "inspiration points" whatever they may call them in game?

Thanks for the info so far.

 

[5ekyu]

Back to George S Patton "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week"


If the plan was dumb it will fail on it own, the DM doesn't have to help it fail.


If it was a dumb plan but worked but costs more resources then the increased cost is a cost and the fact that it worked means it was just another solution.



How many of you give XP for each creature in the encounter if the PCS avoided the encounter entirely, through smart play? I would in some cases, maybe most. If you avoid encounter you gave up the shinies from defeating them, a cost, but conserved resources for later, a benefit. You defeated the encounter that the DM laid out, so to me that's a victory. If its some random thing on the road, no XP. But if I build a lair and you finish it without cleaning out some rooms you still get credit for defeating them all even if you only killed/defeated some of them.

Ok so frankly to me the Patton quote and xp award dont add anything meaningful so i will focus on this...

"If the plan was dumb it will fail on it own, the DM doesn't have to help it fail.


If it was a dumb plan but worked but costs more resources then the increased cost is a cost and the fact that it worked means it was just another solution"

Not sure if you made what you mean by dumb plan more clear or less.

To me the plan and the circumstances can produce advantage, disadvantage, direct check, auto-fail and auto-success.

Application of additional resources (easy example Help action or working together but many other possibilities exist) can help the weaker approaches with advantage - sometimes even,moving it from auyo-fail to success.

What about that gives you problems or concerns, i cannot help you with.

 

[smbakeresq]

To this quote above

"I don't care how many resources a player spends to execute their dumb plan, or how long they take to execute their dumb plan. If it's a dumb plan, it is going to fail. Either automatically, or by me increasing the likelihood of failure by giving disadvantage.

And a smart plan executed with minimum resources and executed hastily, could still be an automatic success if it's a really smart plan. Or I might grant advantage. "




What that quote implies is if the players come up with a dumb plan the DM should make sure it fails. That's wrong. You just play it out and see what happens.


And anything done right away but done with aplomb and determination is better than sitting around the table for 5 minutes as the PC discuss their plan. That's what the quote means. That means players get a timer on them if it drags on too long, or maybe a nice random encounter to blow up the situation. Move the game along.



And I guess you do not give out XP for completely avoiding encounters through smart play, thus "defeating" the encounter. Doing so moves the game along also.

 

[Satyrn]

To this quote above

"I don't care how many resources a player spends to execute their dumb plan, or how long they take to execute their dumb plan. If it's a dumb plan, it is going to fail. Either automatically, or by me increasing the likelihood of failure by giving disadvantage.

And a smart plan executed with minimum resources and executed hastily, could still be an automatic success if it's a really smart plan. Or I might grant advantage. "




What that quote implies is if the players come up with a dumb plan the DM should make sure it fails. That's wrong. You just play it out and see what happens.

I took it as meaning that just because the players spend resources on the dumb plan the DM shouldn't make sure it succeeds . . . play it out and see what happens.

 

[5ekyu]

I took it as meaning that just because the players spend resources on the dumb plan the DM shouldn't make sure it succeeds . . . play it out and see what happens.

Well mostly for my games I prefer far more reliance on character traits and in game events for resolution than whether the gm thinks a plan is dumb (seems to equal fail) or smart/aplomb/determination etc etc etc and auto-sux.

The more one relies on the GM likes/dislikes to carry the day resolution-wise the more it seems it becomes "playing the Gm" and the less it becomes playing out characters or playing dnd.

I know some folks like for the gm auto-fail/auto-six to be bigger and more part of the resolution or maybe more of this smart plan vs dumb plan or now plan vs later plan but that's not the route I try to encourage so much at my table.

Then again, we dont generally prefer things others seem to like either- like resolutions ystems which constantly rely on and pivot around player-side pool (momentum or plot points) and systems where even simple tasks like jump out of help to roof are resolved thru a negotiation process that leads to die roll (burn two knacks and an vp to lower difficulty... wait GM raises fo you accept)

 

[Tallifer]

Discussing the interaction of characters' social skills and players' roleplaying:

As a Dungeon Master, I definitely weigh the reaction of others against the 1) tone of voice and words and the 2) intent and options presented by the hero trying to convince or befriend someone. The character's skills and Abilities are the adds for the roll; the player's roleplaying and ideas factor into the Difficulty Class of the challenge.

My players tried to negotiate with the Serpent Queen by offering a few very low-level magical items. No amount of charming words, high rolls and assistance helped much at all. I explained out of character their problem, but their greed and arrogance overcame all other considerations. (The Paladin's roll using his Charisma and nobility did grant them an audience at least.)

In the event, I suspect their heart was not into thinking of how to negotiate since they were quite happy to slaughter all of her minions and drive her to flight to get the treasure they were seeking.