SoD, how can we accommodate everyone?

[KarinsDad]

There are a couple of obvious ideas that spring to mind, but I'm curious to see if we can't come up with something particularly slick or interesting.

Such as?

 

[dangerous jack]

How about save or get a failed death save and dying (as in 4e)?

Bob the Fighter's at full hp and gets hit with Finger of Death. He fails his save, so his bond between his body and soul is weakened (he gets a failed death save) and he's actually dying.

At the end of his next turn, he needs to make another death save and fails that too. Now he has 2 failed death saves.

On the following turn he makes his death save and is no longer dying (I know that's not exactly how 4e works though). But he still has the 2 strikes against him, so if he gets hit with another Finger of Death during this encounter, he'll be instantly dead if he fails his save. He may also be dead very quickly if he's reduced to below 0hp by other means.

 

[Mattachine]

Save-or-die doesn't automatically mean super-lethal. Save-or-die worked fairly well in the classic editions because saving throws were static numbers. Save-or-die most often occurred with high level spells. High level spells are found in high level games. High level PCs rarely failed their saving throws.

In older editions, save or die began right at level 1, with monsters that had instant death poison: spiders and snakes. There were other low-level monsters that had similarly high-stakes attacks, particularly petrification: basilisks, cockatrices, meduasae. Inevitably, adventures featuring these creatures had scrolls of remove petrification as treasure. *sigh* These types of threats have to be made much higher level.

Also, many effects were save-or-eventually-die. For instance, I have DMed and played in many games where characters died because they were paralyzed by ghouls--heck, I can think of two instances of TPKs with ghouls. They are low-level monsters meant for low-level characters, but a few unlucky saves and everyone dies. Not very fun for the players or the DM.

 

[GM Dave]

Fair, another compromise... again, trying to keep the spirit of save or die, but make it actually make sense within the hit point system that exists in the game.

Finger of Death
VERY high necrotic damage only if it's enough to kill the target. If insufficient, minimal damage (as if target had saved).
Save: Minimal damage.

Similar to how staking a vampire works in Buffy*, let's say FoD dealt 20d6 damage (or whatever). If that's enough to kill the target, then it's dead. If it isn't, it deals 20 damage. Done.

* something like triple damage - if that's enough to kill the vamp, it's staked - if not, it just does normal damage not triple, cause you clearly didn't stake it

Two reasons that I prefer my idea to this idea.

1> I like having the 'flag' of the SoD effect left hanging over the target's head until it is cleared. This keeps the fear and pressure on the player to get the combat finished or the healing received.

Your suggestion has the check made and then if it doesn't apply it is over and forgotten.

2> I like having the non-lethal allows for the condition to clear at the non-lethal rate of 1 hit point per hour and the non-lethal is not a short cut to a death but colours what happens when a character dies.

When you get to 0 hit points you're out of the combat and dead normally but if you have the petrify flag on your character then you died by turning to stone.

Poisons work by dropping your hit points with the non-lethal which means you can hemorrhage health at a slow rate with the knowledge that you have one penalty but if you get really weakened then another penalty will be imposed.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

How about save or get a failed death save and dying (as in 4e)?

Bob the Fighter's at full hp and gets hit with Finger of Death. He fails his save, so his bond between his body and soul is weakened (he gets a failed death save) and he's actually dying.

At the end of his next turn, he needs to make another death save and fails that too. Now he has 2 failed death saves.

On the following turn he makes his death save and is no longer dying (I know that's not exactly how 4e works though). But he still has the 2 strikes against him, so if he gets hit with another Finger of Death during this encounter, he'll be instantly dead if he fails his save. He may also be dead very quickly if he's reduced to below 0hp by other means.

This is similar enough to my proposal that I'll just build off of it instead of write my own. Rename the "Death Save" to different things depending on the rationale and playstyle being used. This could be overtly narrative metagaming, such as "Plot Protection Points," stay as "Death Saves," or even reflavored as some kind of magical resources (via items or something else) that had to be managed totally in game. Then put in some guidelines on how many of these the characters can accumulate over in various playstyles.


Don't stop there, though. That's usually the problem with suggestions of this nature, is that we try to cram too much into one mechanic. Mix the above with one or more other mechanics, probably including one like suggested several ways in this topic to change the timeframe over which the nasty result applies. I'd also suggest at least a third mechanic that directly affected probability. With those three, you can get a wide variety of results and feel:

• Ultra lethal - no death saves, immediate SoD effects, probability low on saving throws.
• Lethal but "plot point" out - sizable and automatically restocking death saves, immediate SoD effects, reasonable probability
• Operationally moderate - resource death saves at some cost, rapid but not immediate SoD effects, probability set in tandem with death save cost.

And so on. Three dials, each with three or more settings, means that you have many exact combinations, some of them which can be flavored differently depending on what the rationale is for that setting in the campaign. It's likely that the practical combinations for most people are a subset of those. I'd expect, for example, very few campaigns to use the "ultra lethal" above, as that is tougher than even Killer DM, low-level Basic. However, someone using that is probably going the opposite of Killer DM--i.e. fudging like mad. It's not a playstyle that appeals to me, but if that is what makes the table feel like heroes, who am I to argue?

 

[BryonD]

Ralgar, the creature before you casts off its cloak, and you see a mass of writhing snakes atop its vaguely feminine head. <Ralgar fails his save versus whatever> Ralgar, the sword in your hand begins to turn to stone, and by mere luck you manage to drop it before the foul magic affected you as well. Your +2 Sword of Swording shatters in a rocky mess on the cavern floor.

On a case by case basis I can be completely on board with the concept you are suggesting. But you choose a really terrible example to work with.
If you look at Medusa: You turn to stone.
It is that simple.

Your sword doesn't look at Medusa.
Eye contact with Medusa doesn't start a wave a petrification moving from your sword towards you.

You may have a lot more fun with this alternate monster you have defined here.

You may come up with other safety net methods of determining whether or not "looking" has happened.

But when all is said and done one of three things are true:
You didn't look and no petrification or other effect whatsoever has happened
or
You looked and turned to stone
or
You didn't encounter Medusa.

Play what you like. But if you absolutely must avoid SoD then an encounter with the Medusa of myth is not possible. (be she a unique individual or an archetype for a whole race, it makes no difference)

 

[Mattachine]

On a case by case basis I can be completely on board with the concept you are suggesting. But you choose a really terrible example to work with.
If you look at Medusa: You turn to stone.
It is that simple.

Unless your game is a recreation of Greek myth, then a medusa (not the Medusa) does not have to work that way.

The legendary Greek Medusa wouldn't be a monster that level 7 characters are expected to fight (but that was the case in most editions of D&D).

 

[BryonD]

Unless your game is a recreation of Greek myth, then a medusa (not the Medusa) does not have to work that way.

The legendary Greek Medusa wouldn't be a monster that level 7 characters are expected to fight (but that was the case in most editions of D&D).

I agree that you can create a different monster and loosely base it on Medusa.
But that doesn't change my point.

And levels don't factor into it.

 

[Mattachine]

Your point is that at all levels, there should be effects that kill characters, even well-played ones, at all levels.

There are some that agree with you, and many that don't.

I hope that 5e moves away from these creatures, spells and effects, especially at lower levels.

 

[BryonD]

Huh?

I said nothing about levels.

My point was that Medusa should function like Medusa.


Edit: But I'll add that moving away from capturing the iconic spirit of classic stories in favor of supporting the game play elements of RPGs is exactly the wrong thing to do if they want to grow. The spirit of the story is the one thing that TTRPGs do better than any other alternative.