SoD, how can we accommodate everyone?

[Jack99]

On a case by case basis I can be completely on board with the concept you are suggesting. But you choose a really terrible example to work with.
If you look at Medusa: You turn to stone.
It is that simple.

Your sword doesn't look at Medusa.
Eye contact with Medusa doesn't start a wave a petrification moving from your sword towards you.

You may have a lot more fun with this alternate monster you have defined here.

You may come up with other safety net methods of determining whether or not "looking" has happened.

But when all is said and done one of three things are true:
You didn't look and no petrification or other effect whatsoever has happened
or
You looked and turned to stone
or
You didn't encounter Medusa.

Play what you like. But if you absolutely must avoid SoD then an encounter with the Medusa of myth is not possible. (be she a unique individual or an archetype for a whole race, it makes no difference)

I am beginning to think you have a Medusa-fetish. It's very entertaining. Sadly I couldn't XP you as of now.

 

[Guest 85555]

I really hope they dont water down the medusa. I wuld much prefer they create optional rules to water down the effects of such monsters for those who dont want that kind of lethality.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, apparently the Medusa is super special. Not entirely sure what's up with that.

Sorta like the proposed lava rules ("you die"), I'm not sure sidestepping the rules actually works well in actual play. "Okay, the woman lowers her hood... it's a medusa! How many of you had your eyes open? All of you? Okay, new character time" "Okay, this combat is with a group of air elementals on a bridge over lava. If you fall in the lava you die. First elemental goes. Everyone make a save or fall in the lava. Hmm, okay. Next elemental goes. It destroys the bridge."

Sometimes it's _better_ narrative* to figure out a way to make things work in a way that plays well*.
* -At the table

 

[BryonD]

I am beginning to think you have a Medusa-fetish. It's very entertaining. Sadly I couldn't XP you as of now.

[homer]snake hair grrrr [/homer]

Honestly, it is a simple iconic example and more fun to talk about than falling into lava.

 

[BryonD]

Yeah, apparently the Medusa is super special. Not entirely sure what's up with that.

Sorta like the proposed lava rules ("you die"), I'm not sure sidestepping the rules actually works well in actual play. "Okay, the woman lowers her hood... it's a medusa! How many of you had your eyes open? All of you? Okay, new character time"

I think the fact that you need to misrepresent how it actually plays is quite telling.

And the only "super special" about Medusa is the ease of working with it as an example.

 

[Mattachine]

But BryonD, by focusing on that example, your argument seems too specific.

Fine, Medusa (capital M medusa) should be special, not encountered in groups of 1d4 by level 8 characters in a dungeon.


Games that feature save-or-die effects (such as 1e and 2e, and 3e to a lesser extent) are great if characters are quick to make and players don't invest a lot of roleplay into them. Myself and my players play D&D to have characters with investment in backstory, and that might take a couple hours to make. When they die due to single die rolls, it just stinks.

A heroic death is going down in a hail of arrows as the other PCs escape, not in the opening attack of a random encounter with a "large spider".

 

[keterys]

I think the fact that you need to misrepresent how it actually plays is quite telling.

Did I? You said you either did not look at her, were petrified, or didn't encounter medusa.

So, a 3e Fort Save is clearly inappropriate. It just petrifies. You were looking at the woman, then she revealed her face.

If the saving throw _is_ appropriate, then so is any number of other mechanical options. You're already conceding gameplay trumps the myth.

 

[BobTheNob]

Personally speaking, I was always a fan of save or die. I just liked that there was something which sat outside the "damage vs hp" mechanic, which gave players a bit of a "fear of god".

It does require some things though
a) Fairly easy recovery. I wouldnt introduce it before players had access to raise dead
b) Universal approach. Fighters and rogues should have it as well
c) Defence against it. "Protection from Death" spells of feats and gear with death effect immunity

 

[Mattachine]

c) Defence against it. "Protection from Death" spells of feats and gear with death effect immunity

Of course, this could bring back the arms race of immunity effects from 3e.

 

[BryonD]

Did I? You said you either did not look at her, were petrified, or didn't encounter medusa.

You said:

""Okay, the woman lowers her hood... it's a medusa! How many of you had your eyes open? All of you? Okay, new character time""

Do you claim anyone plays this way or do you agree that this is not an accurate representation?

So, a 3e Fort Save is clearly inappropriate. It just petrifies. You were looking at the woman, then she revealed her face.

If the saving throw _is_ appropriate, then so is any number of other mechanical options. You're already conceding gameplay trumps the myth.

First, if you dig around you will find that on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS I have advocated that a WILL save is much more appropriate than Fort saves. The idea of a FORT save in this case is certainly the implication of the effect being encountered and overcome.

THAT SUCKS. I agree with you that *specifically* using a FORT save and then describing a character overcoming the look is every bit as wrong as any other option I've complained about. If I advocated THAT I'd be dead in the water.

But you have erred in leaping from that to "everyone with your eyes open turn in your character sheets". First, because it ABSOLUTELY is a misrepresentation of how anyone actually plays.

More importantly because game mechanics MAY fit perfectly well with the myth and game mechanics may suck at capturing the myth. In the myth Perseus knew he didn't want to look and made an effort to not look. He was successful. He MIGHT have failed. But he was successful. A save is a perfectly valid way of modeling this situation and, if the players at the table value the narrative, a save can always be described as "you managed to not look".

Again, I'm all for using a WILL save instead. But it certainly isn't hard to rationalize why a FORT save would work in a way that fits "you didn't look" rather than "you overcame it".

In my game you get a save.
In my game the myth trumps "game play" and if you look you turn to stone. End of discussion there. If you look you turn to stone.
The save determines if you look. And, yes, there may be circumstances in which there is no save allowed. I don't recall anyone ever not actually getting a save in real play, but I can imagine it happening.

Myth trumps game play.
If you look you turn to stone.

Simple.