Soft Cover and Reach Weapons

[frankthedm]

The rule that cover prevents AoOs is mentioned before soft cover is defined, and the definition for soft cover does not indicate that AoOs are treated differently for soft cover than for hard cover.

So, if soft cover applies to melee attacks at all, then it also prevents AoOs.

Big reason i used "IIRC". Now i am trying to remember how I even got that thought in my head.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

So normal cover does prevent aoo? Is this the case or not?

And with soft cover, is this the case as well?

does cover and soft cover stack?

If reach weapons are subject to soft cover, does this mean all creatures with reach have this problem? like a colossal dragon? can i put my cohort in-between me and the dragon. Do i get soft cover? if soft cover stops aoo, does this mean i can cast spells behind a cohart or fighter, and never need to cast defensively. What if the dragon had the mage slayer feat?

The player handbook says all reach is subject to soft cover while not adjacent to the creature your attacking, but the errata says that no melee attacks are subject to soft cover.

Is this just apart of the game that’s put into house rule territory becuse its broken

How does the mini games handle these glaring problems? It must come up alot. Anyone know? I will just use what the mini games use, because they so very similar. It seems that the mini game is almost unplayable if there is no definite solution to a lot of these questions.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So normal cover does prevent aoo? Is this the case or not?

Yes.

And with soft cover, is this the case as well?

Yes.

does cover and soft cover stack?

It depends what you mean.

Essentially, a creature either has cover, or it doesn't. If you're behind a low wall and a goblin, you have cover, and +4 to AC.

However, in some situations, the DM might rule that the combination is enough for 'improved cover' (see 'Varying Degrees of Cover' in the Combat Modifiers section of the PHB).

If reach weapons are subject to soft cover, does this mean all creatures with reach have this problem? like a colossal dragon? can i put my cohort in-between me and the dragon. Do i get soft cover? if soft cover stops aoo, does this mean i can cast spells behind a cohart or fighter, and never need to cast defensively. What if the dragon had the mage slayer feat?

It's not that 'reach weapons are subject to soft cover'; it's that 'melee attacks against non-adjacent creatures use the rules for determining cover against ranged attacks'.

The rules for determining cover against ranged attacks state that if the line passes through a creature etc, the target has soft cover. So if you're making a melee attack against a non-adjacent target, and the line passes through a creature, the target has soft cover.

So the cohort would provide soft cover for you from the dragon (unless the dragon is closer to the cohort than you are, since the cohort will count as a low obstacle to the dragon), and the dragon will not be able to make an AoO on you. Mage Slayer is irrelevant, since you aren't trying to cast defensively anyway.

The player handbook says all reach is subject to soft cover while not adjacent to the creature your attacking, but the errata says that no melee attacks are subject to soft cover.

The PHB says "Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against melee attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC." The erraa corrects this, stating that it provides cover against ranged attacks, not melee, so the corrected line is "Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC." You will find this corrected line in the SRD, for example.

However, since melee attacks against non-adjacent targets use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks, the phrase 'can provide you with cover against ranged attacks' applies to melee attacks against non-adjacent targets as well.

-Hyp.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Ok. Thanks. I think i understand it all now, except 1 thing.

X=a huge creatures squares
S=Potential soft cover
M=me
T=optimum square of huge creature
_|= possible line drawn to determin soft cover

XXX
XXX
TXX
_|S
M

Can I only try to attack T to avoid soft cover? I argue yes, because with melee and cover, i only need to hit one square of the huge creature, so I think you only calculate the T square to be the square that determines if S is giving X soft cover or not. If this isn’t how it works, is this a easier better way to determine soft cover for reach, and should it be a house rule to make the game run faster and better?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Can I only try to attack T to avoid soft cover? I argue yes, because with melee and cover, i only need to hit one square of the huge creature, so I think you only calculate the T square to be the square that determines if S is giving X soft cover or not.

You mean because of "Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you"?

It doesn't apply, because "When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks."

So the rule that begins "When making a melee attack against such a creature" is irrelevant, because you don't use the rules for determining cover from melee attacks; you use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

The relevant rule, then, is "To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC)."

The problem is ascertaining what is mean by "any corner of the target’s square", when the target has a face larger than 5 feet. Does it refer to the 15'x15' square they occupy, or to a particular 5' square within that area?

If it's the first, the Huge creature has soft cover against your attack. If it's the second, and if you can elect for that square to be square T, it doesn't.

Basically, if you're attacking a non-adjacent creature, the first step is "Imagine I'm using a longbow. Does he have cover against my arrows?" That's the answer to "Does he have cover against my glaive?"

-Hyp.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

thanks. You have been very helpfull.

 

[starwed]

Of course, if you throw more than 2 dimensions in it gets more complicated. If you're fighting a Collosal humanoid, and it attempts to attack you while you're 10' behind a line of halflings, do the halflings provide cover?

From Hypersmurf's quotes, it sounds like they do, because most of the rules for combat are 2-D. I'd be inclined to house rule otherwis: generalising rules which refer to the corners of squares, to refer instead to the corners of cubes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, if you throw more than 2 dimensions in it gets more complicated. If you're fighting a Collosal humanoid, and it attempts to attack you while you're 10' behind a line of halflings, do the halflings provide cover?

If the Humanoid is closer to the line than you are, the halflings would count as a low obstacle, and not provide cover.

-Hyp.